No Catharism?

Would would happen if Catharism didn't spread to Occitania and therefore no Albigensian Crusade? Would Occitania eventually be incorporated into France or would it stay more independent of the French crown and align itself more with Catalonia or Italy?
 
Well, without the Albigiensan Crusade, the Counts of Toulouse will probably remain independent and won't have to worry about Northern nobles invading. Peter II of Aragon will also not be killed during that Crusade, as will Raymond Roger of Trencarvel, viscount of Carcassonne.

The three families of Carcasonne, Toulouse and Aragon (which held a number of counties like Roussillon) were the dominant ones in Occitania: there was no unity. Without the Albigensian Crusade, I guess you would still see competitions between them. Particularly between Aragon & Toulouse because the latter shares a long enmity with the Counts of Barcelona (which has been inherited by Aragon). Furthermore, the Counts of Toulouse were rather close to Castille if memory serves me right.

I do not see why Occitania would join Italy: it's not near the Alps and there were few interractions between Toulouse and Italy. Aside from the Pope which eventually inherited Avignon from Toulouse, I see no Italian lord with ties to Toulouse. I can understand the possibility of Spain given the interractions between Toulouse & its southern neighbors but not Italy.

However, I believe there is still a good chance that Toulouse keeps interacting with France. For one, they could share a common ennemy in the Plantagenêts: there is a long feud between Toulouse & Aquitaine and Richard Lionheart had forced Toulouse in vassalage. The Count of Toulouse fighting alongside the French King against John Lackland to put an end to all of this seems quite plausible. Not to mention there is a blood link between Toulouse and the Capetians: Count Raymond V's wife and the mother of Raymond VI was Constance of France, sister to Louis VII and thus aunt of Philip II Augustus. Plus, if there is no Catharism, there are chances that Raymond VI never marries Joan of England, sister of Richard Lionheart, because his previous wife supposedly became a Cathar parfaite.
 
Well, without the Albigiensan Crusade, the Counts of Toulouse will probably remain independent and won't have to worry about Northern nobles invading. Peter II of Aragon will also not be killed during that Crusade, as will Raymond Roger of Trencarvel, viscount of Carcassonne.

The three families of Carcasonne, Toulouse and Aragon (which held a number of counties like Roussillon) were the dominant ones in Occitania: there was no unity.
There was a feudal unity, nevertheless, Trencavel dynasty was vassal toards the raimondine one (except for Razès) and the counts of Tolosa never neglected to have a better hold on these lands. In fact, it's why they joined the Crusade (it half-worked, as they can take lands from Trencavel's at the Treaty of Meaux).

So there's room for a Tolosa growing grasp in Mediterranea.

Aragon have lands in western Occitania, but mainly as vassals of Tolosa (except for Montpellier), so it's not really a big deal.
Where Aragon is more important, it's in Provence that was a barcelonese inheritance.

Without the Albigensian Crusade, I guess you would still see competitions between them. Particularly between Aragon & Toulouse because the latter shares a long enmity with the Counts of Barcelona (which has been inherited by Aragon). Furthermore, the Counts of Toulouse were rather close to Castille if memory serves me right.
Not really that close, Dukes of Aquitaine were more.
Regarding Aragon, in fact they have a rather acceptable attitude. Not only Aragon was vassal of Tolosa for Gavaudan, but they had a common competitor : the Trencavel. Again, when Raimond VII searched an ally, he asked for Peìre II of Aragon.
I do not see why Occitania would join Italy: it's not near the Alps and there were few interractions between Toulouse and Italy.
You're aware that
1)Occitan is actually spoken on the two sides of Alps
2)The Count of Tolosa had lands on Provence
?
Aside from the Pope which eventually inherited Avignon from Toulouse
Actually, Avinhon was not a possession of Tolosa, when the Pope took it. It passed into Anjou's lands and the city was already autonomous since the XI and even a republic for sometimes right after the Crusade.

However, I believe there is still a good chance that Toulouse keeps interacting with France. For one, they could share a common ennemy in the Plantagenêts: there is a long feud between Toulouse & Aquitaine and Richard Lionheart had forced Toulouse in vassalage.
It was a sport among the dukes of Aquitaine anyway, and not really griefing.
In fact, the Tolosan supported everyone that NOT tried to limiting their power.
You have far more odd indeed that Raimonds continue their ties with Capetians, not because of a common ennemy (in fact, making royal armies come in the south would increase the power of the king) but just because it was a far presence, not forcing him in any way.
 
Would would happen if Catharism didn't spread to Occitania and therefore no Albigensian Crusade? Would Occitania eventually be incorporated into France or would it stay more independent of the French crown and align itself more with Catalonia or Italy?

I wouldn't use the word "spread". Catharism was localised to central Occitania, and only touched some precise social classes : basically the declassified knighthood, the urban petty bourgeoisie and the isolated nobles willing to be more independents from their liege.
Paesants remained massivly catholics.
And even in this region, you had a really limited part of it where catharism had more than 1/3 of the population as followers.
 
LSCatilina said:
You're aware that
1)Occitan is actually spoken on the two sides of Alps
2)The Count of Tolosa had lands on Provence
?

I knew about the second although I had forgot it on the moment I wrote the my post. Regarding the fact Occitan is also spoken on the other side of the alps however, I didn't know: to be frank, my knowledge of languages is pretty limited and it's also not a field that interest me a lot.

LSCatilina said:
Actually, Avinhon was not a possession of Tolosa, when the Pope took it. It passed into Anjou's lands and the city was already autonomous since the XI and even a republic for sometimes right after the Crusade.

It seems to me that Avignon was a Tolosan possession until it was ceded by Alphonse of France to the Pope. Alphonse of France was a younger brother of Saint Louis: he was Apanagist Count of Anjou in his own right. However, he had been married to the only daughter of Raymond VII, Joan, and thus became Count of Toulouse jure uxoris upon Raymond VII's death. That is when he came in possession of Avignon.

After Alphonse and Joan's deaths came the question of their inheritance since they died childless. As an Apanage, Anjou reverted to the crown of France as was the rule. As for Toulouse, it should have been given to the heirs of Baldwin of Toulouse (brother of Raymond VI), a bloodline from which the famous XIXth century French painter Henri de Toulouse-Lautrec was descended (meaning it did have heirs by the time I'm talking about), but King Philippe III of France was recognised as heir of the County and it was annexed to the Royal Dosmaine. It's at that point that Avignon was passed down to the Pope as per Alphonse of France's will.

So I guess, we are both right: it's a Count of Anjou (Alphonse de France) that gave Avignon to the Pope. However, he was able to do so because he was also Count of Toulouse jure uxoris.
 
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