No Castille/Spain

OK, just a passing thought. Would it be possible to prevent rise of Spanish/Iberian/whatever identity? Say Moors are more successfull in assimilating people on Iberian pennsula and prevent rise of christian kingdoms south of Pyrenees?

So when/if reconquista happens it's by France (or "France") which means delayed and slower (HYW) and with less population to colonise it retains something of an old culture.

Just a thought, by no means thought out or realsitic.

Thoguhts? comments?
 
If you get a more succesful islamization of Spain, you´ll probably get a more powerfull Al-Andalus, so France probably could not conquer Spain (they would be more interested in Italy, like they was in OTL). Then you´ll probably get another Spain but called Al-Andalus, with arabic culture and language instead of romanic. Then, centuries later, you´ll probably get another Argelia to France.
 
OK, just a passing thought. Would it be possible to prevent rise of Spanish/Iberian/whatever identity?


No. "Spanish" identity came from the visigoth kingsom of Hispania (the one conquered by the moors). All the christian sucessor nations (Asturias, Leon, Galicia, Navarre, Portugal, Castille, Aragon) considered themselves (and, depending of the particualr relations at the moment, their sibling nations) as the rightful heirs to Hispania. In fact, Portugal was very offended when the Catholic Monarchs named the union of Castille and Aragon "Spain" -a different Portuguese identity would not truly form until later, when Portugal and Spain had each conquered their own empires.


Still, a more succesful islamizacion IS possible, but, as Bastian said, you'd simply get a Spain named "Al-Andalus". There would be two Islamic Empires in the mediterranean, the Ottomans on the East and the Andalusi on the west.

An interesting butterfly -Al-Andalus, until it was weakened by the christians and then conquered (twice) by muslin "puritans" -the Almoravids and the Almohads, was a very enlightened society, which translated most Greek works. Since the POD is around the eight century (conquest 711, Battle of Covadonga 722, battle of Poitiers 732), the Renaissance could come from the muslims TTL (note than islamic religion does not forbid human images; they forbid human religious icons, like the Catholic saints. There were scultures of sultans in Al-Andalus, and even illuminated Kurams with Mohhamed and his followers in Persia)
 
No. "Spanish" identity came from the visigoth kingsom of Hispania (the one conquered by the moors). All the christian sucessor nations (Asturias, Leon, Galicia, Navarre, Portugal, Castille, Aragon) considered themselves as the rightful heirs to Hispania.

Well. Galicia, Leon, Portugal, and Castile all were fragments of Asturias, which actively claimed descent from the Visigoths. But I was unaware of the Basques claiming that same legitimacy.
 
Well. Galicia, Leon, Portugal, and Castile all were fragments of Asturias, which actively claimed descent from the Visigoths. But I was unaware of the Basques claiming that same legitimacy.
The Basques didn't, but the kings of Navarre weren't Basque. They were cousins to the kings of Castille and Leon.
 
What about this: Muslims conquer ALL Iberia, including Galicia, Asturias and the Basques provinces. But they are defeated by Charles Martel at Poitiers in 732 (or an ATL analogous). There are massive conversions to Islam (much more than IOTL)

Then, during the linal years of the VIII, Charlemagne (or another Frankish Kings), crosses the Pyrenees, conquers what's now Barcelona and creates a march.

Centuries later, Islamic Spain disentegrates due to local disputes as IOTL. Catalonia stars to reconquer the Penninsula extremly slowly: but they see themselves more as the heirs of Charlemagne and the Franks that as the descendants of the Visigots or the earlier Iberians. Their culture is extremly similar to those of the Southern French, an undistinguishable from them. Meanwhile, the Iberian Musdlims don't see themselves as Iberians, but as part of a cultural entity that engloves both Iberia and North Africa, centered in North Africa.

The Basques, well, are just Basques.;)
 
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The Basques didn't, but the kings of Navarre weren't Basque. They were cousins to the kings of Castille and Leon.
Weren't the kings originally Basque though? I was unclear as to the time period you were referring to.

Sorry, but if you take out the first sentence you are basically describing OTL. Everything you write happened. There were massive conversions to Islam in the tenth century. Charlemagne did establish the Marca Hispanica. The only difference is that somehow the Catalans would see themselves as Visigothic heirs, and I am not sure where that came from.

FWIW, there was an attempt to conquer all of Al-Andalus in the late tenth century by Al-Mansur. The Caliphate of Cordoba fell apart within decades. But if you go the route of Asturias never being founded, you get more leeway IMO.
 
Sorry, but if you take out the first sentence you are basically describing OTL.

Well, that was my idea;).

Everything you write happened. There were massive conversions to Islam in the tenth century. Charlemagne did establish the Marca Hispanica. The only difference is that somehow the Catalans would see themselves as Visigothic heirs, and I am not sure where that came from..

I know you'd need different Pods to have the Muslims conquering Northern Iberia and STILL have Catalonia being founded and the Caliphate falling appart. But I don't thing it would be impossible to achieve that.

And if you did, you would have created a scenario that would fullfill the requirements of the starter of the thread: there would be no "Spanish identity". The Catalonians would see themselves as Southern French, as the Muslims Spaniards as part of a bigger cultural entity encompassing North Africa.

Of course, most inhabitants of Spain would still be geneticaly speaking, partly the descendants of ancient Iberians. Yet they wouldn't percieved themselves as such. Identity is mostly a social construct: you chose with which of your ascendants you identify.
 
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