No Carolingian Coup

Inspired by https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=141755

Pepin's carefully orchestrated promotion is derailed somehow. He loses the confidence of the nobility, who first depose him, then dissolve into factional war. In the aftermath, the merovingian dynasty comes back to full power. The office of mayor becomes a function of the royal household, usually given to the crown prince.

More importantly, the new regime repudiates the carolingian policy towards Rome. After all, it was the pope who had encouraged Pepin's attack on Frankia's sacred monarchy, why should he get any frankish support in the future? In fact, as the spin puts it, Pepin and his family had made the franks into lackeys at the back and call of papal Rome, whereas the franks of old had held firm against the power of imperial Rome. From now on, when the pope needs help let him call on the lombards or the byzantines.

This means that all of Frankia, not just the eastern portion, will stay with a germanic language.

Eventually a seperate primacy is founded in Aachen. Three eastern primates come to the installation to lay hands on the "heiligvater". The existance of the frankish church blunts the strength of roman missionary activity, so among other things, the columban church survives. There are persistant rumors that the frankish church is tainted with arianism, but that might just be a roman propaganda ploy.

Being more focussed on events north of the Mediterranian, the empire will not hold Provence, but it will probably hold most of Aquitaine. There will also be no Lothar Regnum. The empire has finally learned the folly of the brother divvy, from now on, younger sons only inherit vassalages on the edges, albeit they are free to expand their domains outward.

Any thoughts? Like what happens when the vikings start coming?
 
I don't think it will play out quite that way. Most of Western Francia was already Romance-speaking, and a conflict with Rome wouldn't change that. UNless you remove the Anglo-Saxon missionary activity in the Eastern parts, you also won't see a break with the papacy, though its political power is likely to be much reduced. The 8th century missionaries and 9th century reform orders were very pro-papal, and it's likely you'd see them even without Carolingian encouragement.

In fact, given the centrifgugal tendencies in Thuringia and Alamannia the small probability a Merovingian dynasty will conquer Bavaria, Saxony and Frisia, it is possible the 'Francia' will in the medium term be a Romance-speaking kingdom with a Germanic tradition of loan words and naming. 'Germany' without its imperial tradition may turn into a number of kingdoms (Bavaria had ambitions that way, and the dukes of Thuringia and Frisia could well follow suit - not so sure about the Saxons, though they may)

The churchdevelopment under these circumstances is likely to beinteresting, and we may see a lot more vernacular used if the Anglo-Saxon model remains the one everybody follows. The Lombard kingdom will be a very, very interesting place under these circumstances. A strongly Roman church with a good deal of independence in the episcopate and oodles of literary heritage.

An Aachen Patriarchate is very improbable, I'm afraid. It's very hard to see how this could be established in the face of a long and widespread tradition of looking to Rome for spiritual authority. What is much more likely is that the political power of the popes is strongly curtailed, and the western church remains controlled by its (s)elected episcopate organised in provincial synods under kings, while the papacy - after the nearly inevitable Lombard takeover or Byzantine resurgence - becomes a more spiritual than political position held by ascetic monastics and theologians. Monte Cassino rather than the schools of Bologna as the hothouse of papal candidates.
 
Pepin's carefully orchestrated promotion is derailed somehow. He loses the confidence of the nobility, who first depose him, then dissolve into factional war. In the aftermath, the merovingian dynasty comes back to full power. The office of mayor becomes a function of the royal household, usually given to the crown prince.

More importantly, the new regime repudiates the carolingian policy towards Rome. After all, it was the pope who had encouraged Pepin's attack on Frankia's sacred monarchy, why should he get any frankish support in the future? In fact, as the spin puts it, Pepin and his family had made the franks into lackeys at the back and call of papal Rome, whereas the franks of old had held firm against the power of imperial Rome. From now on, when the pope needs help let him call on the lombards or the byzantines.

Up to here, this is a very interesting and convincing thought experiment.
I think it's definitely worth pursuing.

This means that all of Frankia, not just the eastern portion, will stay with a germanic language.
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I stuck at that point as well.
French language became predominant because the vast majority of the population, partially up to the nobility ranks directly below the king, but at least encompassing almost all counts, spoke a Romance language which we may call Old French. It seems that the Carolingian rulers neither fostered nor hemmed the spreading use of it into official procedures.

Eventually a seperate primacy is founded in Aachen.

Of course, much of this kind is theoretically possible in the early Middle Ages, but I cannot see that directly evolving out of the plausible conflict with the Holy See you developped. There have been political antagonisms with the Pope over and over again, but that hardly ever led to the proclamation of a competing primacy.



That being said, it would be interesting to see the initial part developped further!
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I agree this POD are unlikely to result in Germanic France, likely with the territorieas France already had in "Germany" and "France" it would lead to a 50/50 split. What's interesting are how independent Lombard, Bavaria, Thuringia, Frisia and Saxony would evolve without being unified under one crown.
 
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