De Gaule Said - Belguim was a country invented by the British to annoy the French. What if Belguim was never a formal nation? Does France become the second industrialised nation after Britain? What of Waterloo? What of WW1? and What becomes of Luxemburg, which a Belgian mate of mine claims is really Belgian anyway? Oh, and this small country's empire?
No Belguim?
- Thread starter SlickWilly
- Start date
So, what happened to Belgium? It remained part of France somehow? It remained part of the Netherlands? It was split between the Netherlands and France? It remained Austrian or maybe Spanish? A big meteor destroyed all the land and replaced it with water?
That is quite important to know to answer your questions.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
If it's split between France and the Netherlands, the British will weigh in heavily on the side of the Dutch getting Antwerp.
The solution of a "no Belgium" where it remains a part of a Greater Netherlands would be a bit more favorable to the British and the rest of Europe than giving some part of land to France and thus increasing its strength even more. Every diplomatic and political move in the wider european diplomacy up to Crimean war and Napoleon III. was in the light of keeping France isolated.
But the the current monarch of the Netherlands of the time was a bit too much in "l'etait c'est moi" attitude and he was a very pious calvinist which agitated the catholic part of the population of the Benelux.
There was also some sort of proposition by french chief diplomat Talleyerand for the partition of Belgium along the lines where everyone would be somewhat satisfied.
But the the current monarch of the Netherlands of the time was a bit too much in "l'etait c'est moi" attitude and he was a very pious calvinist which agitated the catholic part of the population of the Benelux.
There was also some sort of proposition by french chief diplomat Talleyerand for the partition of Belgium along the lines where everyone would be somewhat satisfied.
The King of the Netherlands - hwo also owned the rest of Belgium along with Holland and Luxemburg.
wolf_brother
Banned
Wasn't France promised German/Prussian neutrality in annexing Belgium, or at least Wallonia, in return for France's own neutrality in Prussia's annexations of the Third German states during the fallout of the Austro-Prussian War? Of course that fell through OTL with the Franco-Prussian War, but perhaps Bismarck dies sometime between 1866 and 1870 so the deal goes through - Belgium is split between France and the Netherlands.
I'm not sure Bismarck made any defininte promise, but he expressed a vague sympathy for Nappy III's aspirations "wherever the French language is spoken". The idea, of course, was to entangle him with Britain and ensure his complete isolation.
I don't think the future of the Flemish provinces was ever discussed.
Anderman
Donor
It will became a part of Prussia of course 
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=180416&highlight=Prussian+Belgium
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=180416&highlight=Prussian+Belgium
Problem is that everybody back in 1830 agreed on Belgium's neutrality, as with Switserland in 1815. The non respect of this by Germany in 1914 was the officila reason of GB entering in the great war.
Bismarc indeed gave Nappy III the impression that he gould get away with Belgium, eventually only Luxemburg. The US used the same lure against Sadam when attacking Kouweit
About Belgium being invented ? The Dutch still mint their golden ducats with "Confederatio Belgica". We used to call ourself the southern Netherlands since they broke away but we are some kind of nation since the end of the middle ages. But e do like to splitt up, thats true
Bismarc indeed gave Nappy III the impression that he gould get away with Belgium, eventually only Luxemburg. The US used the same lure against Sadam when attacking Kouweit
About Belgium being invented ? The Dutch still mint their golden ducats with "Confederatio Belgica". We used to call ourself the southern Netherlands since they broke away but we are some kind of nation since the end of the middle ages. But e do like to splitt up, thats true
The Netherlands, north and south, were united by the House of Valois-Burgundy under Philip the Good and Charles the Bold. When the disaster of Nancy happened, people scrambled to marry Charles' daughter Mary. So to eliminate "Belgium" you either have to weaken England that it doesn't become a paranoid power or it never unites in the first place.
In fact without the Burgundians Flanders could be absorbed into the French crown (or if the Valois-Burgundy get the French throne).
In fact without the Burgundians Flanders could be absorbed into the French crown (or if the Valois-Burgundy get the French throne).
Belgium has always seemed to me to be a country that could very easily not exist. It is not bound by the same language (or even linguistic group, like France) or a long common history (like Switzerland), but was instead created to prevent French annexation and create a buffer to block further French expansion into the Low Countries. A POD in 1830, perhaps with a smarter Talleyrand or more lenient Britain, could probably see at least Wallonia and part of the Flemish coastline annexed by France. If you want an earlier POD, I have always been curious about the survival of Walloon (the language), but for this would probably need to butterfly away revolutionary France's annexation of the region.
As for the future of the Low Countries in France ruled by the House of Valois-Burgundy, you shall just have to keep watching my new TL to see that.
Scipio
As for the future of the Low Countries in France ruled by the House of Valois-Burgundy, you shall just have to keep watching my new TL to see that.
Scipio
There are many ways to avoid Belgium, certainly with a POD far enough.
First if all the principalities that made up the Netherlands and Belgium aren't unified, both Belgium and the Netherlands will never exist and end up French, German, or something completely different.
Next avoid the Dutch revolt somehow. If the Netherlands didn't end up Spanish, but Austrian if Philip II had been a better king, etc.
Next let the entire Dutch revolution fail. All of the Netherlands remain Spanish, no Belgium.
Next The Dutch revolt is more succesful and manages to capture what is now Belgium.
Next the French are more succesful in the 17th and 18th century and capture the Spanish or Austrian Netherlands.
Next the Dutch care more about the southern Netherlands in the 17th and 18th century and actually succesfully try to add it to the republic. (or possibly a combination of the last two with the Dutch and French dividing it somehow).
Next The French manage to keep it after they conquered it during the French revolution.
Next the Prussians keep the Southern Netherlands, which they occupied after the Napoleonic wars.
Next the Belgian revolution is avoided, failed or is defeated by the Dutch.
In the peace settlement after the Belgian revolution Belgium is divided between France, the Netherlands and maybe Prussia (possibly including a independent state around Antwerp). The Talleyrandrand or Talleyrand-Wellington partition plans.
So oppertunities enough to avoid Belgium.
First if all the principalities that made up the Netherlands and Belgium aren't unified, both Belgium and the Netherlands will never exist and end up French, German, or something completely different.
Next avoid the Dutch revolt somehow. If the Netherlands didn't end up Spanish, but Austrian if Philip II had been a better king, etc.
Next let the entire Dutch revolution fail. All of the Netherlands remain Spanish, no Belgium.
Next The Dutch revolt is more succesful and manages to capture what is now Belgium.
Next the French are more succesful in the 17th and 18th century and capture the Spanish or Austrian Netherlands.
Next the Dutch care more about the southern Netherlands in the 17th and 18th century and actually succesfully try to add it to the republic. (or possibly a combination of the last two with the Dutch and French dividing it somehow).
Next The French manage to keep it after they conquered it during the French revolution.
Next the Prussians keep the Southern Netherlands, which they occupied after the Napoleonic wars.
Next the Belgian revolution is avoided, failed or is defeated by the Dutch.
In the peace settlement after the Belgian revolution Belgium is divided between France, the Netherlands and maybe Prussia (possibly including a independent state around Antwerp). The Talleyrandrand or Talleyrand-Wellington partition plans.
So oppertunities enough to avoid Belgium.