No Battle of the Alamo

Suppose during the Texan struggle for independance from Mexico, there is no battle of the Alamo? Texas still gains its independance, but now various people who died there, like Davy Crockett and Jim Bowie, are still alive. How does their survival affect events in the future?

Davy Crockett in particular had had a political career before the Texas Revolution. Would he return to it afterwards, and if so to what end?
 
Bowie would have died anyway... at the time of the assault on the Alamo, he was mortally ill and confined to bed... he had been going in and out of consciousness for days, and didn't recognize old friends...

Crockett did indeed want to start a new political career in TX, and if he had survived the war, he would have run for office.

Travis had little to no reputation until he died at the Alamo... if there had been no battle there, he might have gone to Goliad... or stuck with Houston as one of his cavalry officers.

Without a battle at the Alamo, there likely would have been one at Goliad... and that would have been a lot tougher for Santa Anna to crack, assuming that someone else is there to give Fannin some backbone. One interesting scenario I've considered is WI Travis went to the fortress at Goliad (along with some of the cannon from the Alamo) and displaced Fannin in command... instead of "Remember the Alamo", you might have "Remember the Presidio!" (that was the fortress at Goliad)... I've often considered writing a short story based on that scenario...
 
Forget the Alamo

As has been pointed out not a lot. Bowie was high on laudanum being in the final stages of syphillis. Crockett's career as a politician was a failure and he was uinlikely to recover. His speeches had the effect of assisting his opponents. He was a whig which is ironical as it was the Whigs who were against the later war with Mexico and had a more concilliatory attitude.

He supported settlers rights but also spoke in favour of Indians and was often critical of Andrew Jackson.

Travis was a hothead who supported the war faction and might have become a minor pain in Sam Houston's side. Dickinson would probably have resumed trade as a blacksmith

The people involved would probably have sunk into obscurity and there would have been no cry of "Remember the Alamo"
 
Bowie would have died anyway... at the time of the assault on the Alamo, he was mortally ill and confined to bed... he had been going in and out of consciousness for days, and didn't recognize old friends...

Crockett did indeed want to start a new political career in TX, and if he had survived the war, he would have run for office.

Travis had little to no reputation until he died at the Alamo... if there had been no battle there, he might have gone to Goliad... or stuck with Houston as one of his cavalry officers.

Without a battle at the Alamo, there likely would have been one at Goliad... and that would have been a lot tougher for Santa Anna to crack, assuming that someone else is there to give Fannin some backbone. One interesting scenario I've considered is WI Travis went to the fortress at Goliad (along with some of the cannon from the Alamo) and displaced Fannin in command... instead of "Remember the Alamo", you might have "Remember the Presidio!" (that was the fortress at Goliad)... I've often considered writing a short story based on that scenario...

The forces even reinforced by Travis who was a Lt.Col. of Regulars to Fannin's Full Col. would still be out numbered 900 to 500 by the Mexican column that OTL captured Fannin. As Santa Ana had another 5000 troops any different outcome at Goliad is unlikely. Had all the troops originally with Fannin and Travis, Crockett, Bowie retreated to Victoria and joined Houston, as Fannin was ordered to, it would have more than doubled the force Sam had. SA would however have had almost 6000 as his huge casualties inflicted at the Alamo and lesser ones leading up to and including Goliad would also not have happened.
If Travis had joined with Fannin and defended the "Presidio" the most likely would have been destroyed as was the Alamo only leaving fewer Mexican troops to pursue Houston.
Net if the are wiped out as a group no real difference from OTL, if they join with Houston and are caught by the Mexican forces history may well be a tad different.;)
 
Crockett, Travis and Bowie

Crockett failed in Tennesee, but narrowly, and for the most part because of the active and vehement opposition of Andrew Jackson and his political allies in that state. Crockett had begun as a supporter of Jackson, but had turned against him on the issue of the rights of poor squatters to the land that they settled on. Crockett, being himself poor his whole life, had a great deal of empathy with the poor whites of the western part of the state. He came to view Jackson as a member of the wealthy plantation-owning class that oppressed the downtrodden. That being said, Crockett would probably have tried to run for the Senate or possibly even President of the Republic had he survived. IOTL he was seriously considered as a Presidential candidate by the Whigs, before his loss of the House seat.

I disagree about Travis. Although a failure in his home state of South Carolina, his move to Texas made him a changed man. He became an extremely successful lawyer, with a booming business and considerable prosperity. As a champion of the revolutionary party he probably would have gone on to run for President of the Republic. Far more educated and literate than either Houston or Crockett, he would have had a good shot at achieving that ambition. If he had, he might have tried to influence public opinion to maintain Texas as an independent republic.

Bowie almost certainly died of typhoid fever, common in Texas at that time. Three weeks before arriving at the Alamo, he was vigorous and in command of one of the columns sent to San Antonio - not likely if he was in the grip of tertiary syphylis. Bowie was strictly a get-rich-quick kind of guy. If he had survived the Texas revolution, he probably would have ended up heading to California in the Gold Rush of 1848.
 
Say you have the scenario Dave Howery proposes: that Travis and Crockett abandon the Alamo in favor of reinforcing Goliad. The battle at Goliad might be more successful than OTL, perhaps enough to allow Travis and Crockett to escape a likely, though more costly defeat. There are still a number of questions: how does Santa Anna respond? what happens in San Antonio de Bexar?

For one, it's important to recall that the force at the Alamo was originally the Army of Volunteers, whereas Travis was a commander of the Regular Army; he and Bowie were in joint command at the Alamo, each of their respective forces. Bowie's illness was thus lucky because it left Travis in sole command of the garrison. If Travis and Crockett survive, the latter may well do so as commander of the Army of Volunteers. Both may come to resent Sam Houston for not relieving them either at the Alamo or at Goliad.

IMO, it's still likely that Santa Anna will attempt to press on after a victory at Goliad. If so, then it will probably be Sam Houston's force that meets and potentially defeats him. However, if the Battle at Goliad is more successfull, perhaps Travis and Crockett manage to negotiate a settlement. I doubt they are able, because it will take a bit longer for the political situation both among Santa Anna's commanders and back in Mexico to progress to the point of overthrowing him.

Without spending too much time on specifics, it looks the politics of the early Republic will be pretty interesting. For one, say Houston and Crockett both enter the race to be the first elected President of Texas; however, they end up splittig the vote and Stephen Austin wins. Without OTL's Battle of San Jacinto, however, Mirabeau Lamar is not likely to be Vice-President. If Austin is successfull as President, I kind of like Juan Seguin as Austin's VP and eventual successor, which will inject Tejanos a bit more forcefully into the Republic.

A split between Crockett and Houston might well fester: emnity from the divisions between the Army of the Volunteers and the Regulars reinforced by anti and pro Jacksonianism respectively. Without Lamar, this split, mitigated by the Austin/Seguin crowd may define the Republic. If so, then these two factions will agree on a lot: beneficial treatment of Indians, for one.

The long term prospects of the Republic of Texas will nevertheless depend upon 1) the ability of the Republic to attain foreign loans, 2) Mexican politics and any future invasion attempts, 3) US expansion/slavery politics. Only one of these--foreign loans--is really something that Texas might influence and even so is more likely to depend upon foreign powers than Texas' politics. However, if Texas manages to avoid the expense of the Lamar expeditions and Indian policies, attract Tejano sympathies particularly those of Santa Fe, and develops a more mature politics (Crockett vs Houston is not likely to develop into the kind of antics that characterized OTL, such as the Archives War, IMHO), then Texas may find itself more able to survive as an Independent country. However, it's really all about the money: Texas was always strapped for cash in a serious way.

Even if such a Texas were annexed by the US, it might create interesting US ripple effects: Houston and Crockett might continue their political careers in Washington, affecting the politics of the 1850s. Either could make for a nice compromise candidate for the Democrats convulsed by slavery and resentment of Stephen Douglas. Texas might retain a bit more Tejano influence if the patterns of settlement after annexation are different.
 
So you don't think Travis would play a political role?

I do, but I think that Texas politics would probably be shaped at first by the contest between Crockett and Houston. I'm not sure how Travis would affect things: for one, there's probably an unrepresented viewpoint between Houston and Crockett that Lamar represented OTL: overt hostility to Indians, jingoistic expansion. I suppose Travis could support such a viewpoint, but it doesn't strike me as quite in character, which may be an OTL bias.
 
that would be an interesting TL with Travis Crockett and Houston being politicans in the ante bellum period. would Crockett and Travis support the CSA or use their considerable influnce to keep Texas in the union. Personal i believe that Travis would support the Union
 
one thing to remember about Goliad... the Presidio there was a real fortress, not a semi-walled old church. If we can assume that the men of the Alamo go there, along with the bigger of the cannons, then Goliad becomes a really tough nut to crack... provided Fannin isn't in command. But yes, if Santa Anna really wants to, he'll conquer the place... but he'll have to either take a LOT of casualties in the process or settle for starving them out... which gives precious time for Houston to further enlarge and train his army...
 
one thing to remember about Goliad... the Presidio there was a real fortress, not a semi-walled old church. If we can assume that the men of the Alamo go there, along with the bigger of the cannons, then Goliad becomes a really tough nut to crack... provided Fannin isn't in command. But yes, if Santa Anna really wants to, he'll conquer the place... but he'll have to either take a LOT of casualties in the process or settle for starving them out... which gives precious time for Houston to further enlarge and train his army...
My impression has always beenthat Santa Anna planned to sweep into Texas, put down the Problems there, then move on to some of the other Rebellious provinces.

?Does he have the political resources to be able to sit in Front of the Presidio, for the necessary 5-6 weeks needed to take it?.
 
Without a battle at the Alamo, there likely would have been one at Goliad... and that would have been a lot tougher for Santa Anna to crack, assuming that someone else is there to give Fannin some backbone. One interesting scenario I've considered is WI Travis went to the fortress at Goliad (along with some of the cannon from the Alamo) and displaced Fannin in command... instead of "Remember the Alamo", you might have "Remember the Presidio!" (that was the fortress at Goliad)... I've often considered writing a short story based on that scenario...

Goliad? You mean Coleto, don't you?:confused:
 
My impression has always beenthat Santa Anna planned to sweep into Texas, put down the Problems there, then move on to some of the other Rebellious provinces.

?Does he have the political resources to be able to sit in Front of the Presidio, for the necessary 5-6 weeks needed to take it?.
Quite so; for Santa Anna the campaign in Texas was as much about sending a message to his enemies in Mexico proper (namely, "defy me and I will crush you quickly and mercilessly") as it was about actually putting down the rebellion in Texas.
 
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