No battle fought at Gettysburg

Just started watchin the 4 hr epic of GETTYSBURG again- alongside 1 of my mates who's neevr sseen it before- which has led me to think, WI there hadn't been a shoe factory located at gettysburg, which caused the leading Confederate formations to gravitate there since they were so short of proper footware ? How could an alternate battle in Pennsylvania have been fought had such a decisive engagement not been at Gettysburg ?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The Confederates were already in the process of concentrating their forces at Gettysburg. The presence of the shoes merely caused the battle to start earlier than it might otherwise have done. This was, in truth, to the South's advantage, as it allowed them to smash two Union corps on the first day of the battle due to their temporary numerical superiority.
 
A more interesting question would be what if Lee had taken Longstreet's advice and swung around to the right and outmarched the Army of the Potomac to get between Meade and Washington, instead of attacking the heights on Day two.
 
A more interesting question would be what if Lee had taken Longstreet's advice and swung around to the right and outmarched the Army of the Potomac to get between Meade and Washington, instead of attacking the heights on Day two.

that would seem to be the better strategy... and yet, what if Meade declines to attack the Rebs when they have entrenched themselves on the high ground somewhere? What if he gets a clue and puts the AotP astride Lee's supply lines somewhere? It is the AoNV that is in enemy country, and has the worse supply problems. IIRC, Washington DC was in no great danger at this time, since it had been immensely fortified, and Lee can hardly afford to circle and besiege the town (even if he has enough troops for it) with the Union army nearby. Basically, so long as Lee is in Maryland, he has the worse problems to solve; he needs to bring the Union to battle fairly quickly, and beat them...
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
that would seem to be the better strategy... and yet, what if Meade declines to attack the Rebs when they have entrenched themselves on the high ground somewhere? What if he gets a clue and puts the AotP astride Lee's supply lines somewhere? It is the AoNV that is in enemy country, and has the worse supply problems. IIRC, Washington DC was in no great danger at this time, since it had been immensely fortified, and Lee can hardly afford to circle and besiege the town (even if he has enough troops for it) with the Union army nearby. Basically, so long as Lee is in Maryland, he has the worse problems to solve; he needs to bring the Union to battle fairly quickly, and beat them...

That's true from a purely military point of view. But this is war, so military factors don't matter much. :p

As well-fortified as it is, if Lee were able to get between the AoP and Washington, the city would have been thrown into a panic. Political factors alone would have required Meade to attack.
 
That's true from a purely military point of view. But this is war, so military factors don't matter much. :p

As well-fortified as it is, if Lee were able to get between the AoP and Washington, the city would have been thrown into a panic. Political factors alone would have required Meade to attack.

of course, if the AotP approaches, Lee would have to call off the siege anyway; he doesn't have the manpower to both besiege DC and take on Meade at the same time. I can't imagine why Meade would attack entrenched troops on the high ground, even if they were near Washington... it seems mad to me, and I always thought Lee was mad for doing so at OTL Gettysburg...

edit: Not to mention, the AoNV placing itself between Washington DC and the AotP seems like a great thing... for the Union, which could crush them between two forces...
 
That's true from a purely military point of view. But this is war, so military factors don't matter much. :p

As well-fortified as it is, if Lee were able to get between the AoP and Washington, the city would have been thrown into a panic. Political factors alone would have required Meade to attack.

true. very true.

that said, though, I think an advance on washington, while it would require Meade to follow, is tempting fate in the extreme. And Meade would follow, probably cutting off lee's supply route in the process. lee is not quite pinned in place, but fairly close. In front of him lies arguably the most heavily fortified city in the world, with a garrison of about 35,000 men ready to repulse an attack or, if necessary, give battle in support of Meade. Behind him, of course, is Meade and a superior Army of the Potomic. What does Lee do. Attempt to rush washington? Offer battle to Meade, hope that he can entice him to attack before the ANV runs out of supplies or the troops in washington sally? break for virginia, and hope that he can outrun or outfight the northerers? are any of these good choices?
 
Well, Lee would be out of his mind to even attempt to besiege Washington if the Army of the Potomac is still a going concern. But as said, if he gets between Washington and Meade, then there is going to be a huge panic.

All Lee would have to do is find some high ground between Washington and Meade, leave enough space between himself and Meade to manuver if need be, dig in and Meade would almost have to attack. The same situation would have occured if Lee was able to sieze the heights on day one.

Look at Fredricksburg, far less dire a situation for the North, political factors alone compelled Burnside to attack a fortified position.
 
Well, Lee would be out of his mind to even attempt to besiege Washington if the Army of the Potomac is still a going concern. But as said, if he gets between Washington and Meade, then there is going to be a huge panic.

All Lee would have to do is find some high ground between Washington and Meade, leave enough space between himself and Meade to manuver if need be, dig in and Meade would almost have to attack. The same situation would have occured if Lee was able to sieze the heights on day one.

Look at Fredricksburg, far less dire a situation for the North, political factors alone compelled Burnside to attack a fortified position.

I guess the question is, can lee hold the position? Anywhere he sets up between Gettysburg and Washington DC, he is running the risk of having his supply lines cut by either the forces holding washington or meade as he advances. Lee isn't going to be pressing the city too hard, so Meade can advance at whatever pace he wants, weakening the ANV. And if Meade does commit to battle, which I agree he probably has to at some point, Lee has to deal with the equivalent of a couple of corps which could advance from Washington and threaten his rear (I doubt the entire garrison would be sent, but even a division or two could cause havoc).
 
Back to the question at hand, the easiest way to take away any sort of armed confrontation at Gettysburg wouldn't be changing any Confederate actions such as the shoe factory example, but Union military strategy.

I'm surprised I'm the first one saying something, but W.S. Hancock was given the option by Meade to retreat and join the rest of the Army, or stay at Gettysburg and fight. He chose to stay and the rest is history.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Well, here's something else to consider: what did the Confederacy have left in Virginia while the ANV was in the North? Conceivably Meade could turn Lee's strategy against him by pinning the ANV north of the Potomac and then sending a corps or two to march on Richmond. And the South could afford the loss of Richmond less than the North could afford the loss of Washington, given that Richmond was an industrial center as well as the political one.
 
Gents,

Sweet Fanny Adams... the goddamned "Shoe Factory" myth again... :rolleyes:

There was no "shoe factory" at Gettysburg and there was no supply depot either. What's more, the ANV in the person of Early knew both those things because he'd already marched through the town four days earlier foraging as he went.

Lee had recently learned that the Army of the Potomac had crossed the river it was named after and was marching north. Just as in their last invasion of the North, the ANV was scattered from hell to breakfast due to logistical concerns. Lee was determined not to get caught with a divided army as he had been earlier before Antietam, so he was looking to concentrate somewhere. Concentrating to the east was a better choice than concentrating to the west because it maintained a threat towards more US cities like Harrisburg, Baltimore, and Washington.

To concentrate to the east, Lee needed to pass two of his corps and their wagon trains through the South Mountain gaps before the Army of the Potomac came up. That move placed most of those corps on the Chamberstown-to-Gettysburg road as they moved through the gap, so Heth was dispatched to Gettysburg in order to control the road junctions there and give Lee the strategic room he needed.

At Gettyburg, Heth ran into Buford and, both because his "blood was up" and he first thought he was facing militia, he began the general engagement his orders told him avoid.

After that, it was a race between the ANV and AoP as to who could get to Gettysburg faster. Lee had to clear the mountain gaps or risk being penned up in them and Meade had to prevent Lee from using the road net centered on Gettysburg to escape Adams County and the advancing US army.

As Lee himself later wrote "It had not been intended to deliver a general battle so far from our base unless attacked, but coming unexpectedly upon the whole Federal Army, to withdraw through the mountains with our extensive trains would have been difficult and dangerous..."

Lee had to attack at Gettysburg because he couldn't withdraw from Gettysburg. The roads back through the South Mountain gaps weren't sufficient to pass his entire army rapidly enough to avoid being defeated in detail.

If you want the battle at Gettysburg not to occur, either concentrate the ANV there earlier so that Lee move off or get the AoP there earlier so that Lee chooses not to pass through the South Mountain gaps.


Bill
 
Lee was under severe pressure as his strategy had already failed, by taking his army north instead of sending part of it west.

Once Vicksburg had surrendered, cutting the CSA in half, the last thing Lee could do was avoid a major battle and retreat to Virginia as the strategic situation for the CSA was becoming so dire that even with the bloodbath at Gettysburg greatly weakening the ANV he was immediately ordered to rush Longstreet's command west.
 
Top