No Barbarossa

Would SU invade Europe without Barbarossa

  • Yes

    Votes: 41 65.1%
  • No

    Votes: 22 34.9%

  • Total voters
    63
  • Poll closed .
No, I don't think Syracuse University would invade Europe. The USSR may do so, but not SU.

Anaxagoras, sure, try to absolve Syracuse University of so many foul deeds...;)

ROFL, our old friend "Syracuse University" rears its heads once again! :D I actually had confused Nazi Demon Sealions invade Syracuse University in my Operation Teufelseelowe ASBTL, thereby bringing the US into the war, just because of that old meme!
 
Actually, I'm going to nitpick and point out that nobody in this thread has used the acronym "SU" to refer to the USSR.

Also: Stalin's preferred overall plan was to watch the Allies and Axis fight each other for awhile while he stockpiled his own forces, so while he would probably make a move against Germany at some point (late 1942 or early 43), it would be after the latter was already embroiled in an engagement against the West, and like said before, most likely Stalin had a limited conflict in mind.


This, exactly, was the American plan (to watch Hitler and Stalin bull each other while they are convincing the people to join the war). In both cases axis stupidity prevailed.
 
even if Stalin invade Europe, wat is not proved do lack of evidenced documents
the Red Army will have same problems like Wehrmacht, geting further away from Supplylines
while the Wehrmacht is closer to the Reich
and there is a eventuality that British Empire seek a truce with The Third Reich
even look for temporally defensive alliance with The Third Reich against Soviet Union?
because in the Empire politician consider communism worse as National socialism...
 
*ahem* - getting back on thread

Although I'm of the opinion the Soviet Union (SU hereafter!) would probably attack Germany, thinking more about it Stalin *is* very cautious. He would only do so assuming he could win, win relatively easily (though casualties probably don't bother him that much - afterall, it's not like its him at the frontlines) and take some territory or set up puppet states.

A lot will therefore depend on how the United States of America (hereafter the USA) and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (hereafter UK) were doing against Germany.

Assuming that OTL in the Pacific and Germany's reaction happens, we find in early 1942 that the UK and USA facing Germany.
1. What has Germany done in the summer of 1941, and what will she do during 1942 if not attack the SU?

2. And what can the UK and USA do against Germany to weaken her enough to convince Stalin that an attack will get great benefit at relatively little cost?

Answering (1) I suspect is - not a lot - Germany can't just plow 200 divisions into the Med due to the logistics. Maybe take Malta?
Germany isn't getting Gibraltar without Spanish help, which *still* isn't happening so Germany is reduced to either:
Taking Malta and then either:
Attacking Spain (bad idea)
Attacking Britain more forcefully (good idea - but Germany isn't launching any Sealion still)

Answering (2) is:
Over the course of 1942 and 1943 - Clearing the Med. Take Sicily. Take Corsica and Sardina. Retake Crete. Retake (if needed) Malta.
Maybe take Norway.
Continental Europe is too tough to crack if Germany isn't occupied against the SU.

So it comes down to 1943 - The UK and USA are starting to win, but its really slow going and clearly not happening anytime soon. Does Stalin decide to jump in and attack Germany?

Probably not...

Which means its buckets of instant sunshine over Germany in August 1945 and a VERY rapid surrender and collapse of Germany thereafter... at which point Stalin does jump in to take Poland... and Romania.
 
*ahem* - getting back on thread

Although I'm of the opinion the Soviet Union (SU hereafter!) would probably attack Germany, thinking more about it Stalin *is* very cautious. He would only do so assuming he could win, win relatively easily (though casualties probably don't bother him that much - afterall, it's not like its him at the frontlines) and take some territory or set up puppet states.

A lot will therefore depend on how the United States of America (hereafter the USA) and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (hereafter UK) were doing against Germany.

Assuming that OTL in the Pacific and Germany's reaction happens, we find in early 1942 that the UK and USA facing Germany.
1. What has Germany done in the summer of 1941, and what will she do during 1942 if not attack the SU?

2. And what can the UK and USA do against Germany to weaken her enough to convince Stalin that an attack will get great benefit at relatively little cost?

Answering (1) I suspect is - not a lot - Germany can't just plow 200 divisions into the Med due to the logistics. Maybe take Malta?
Germany isn't getting Gibraltar without Spanish help, which *still* isn't happening so Germany is reduced to either:
Taking Malta and then either:
Attacking Spain (bad idea)
Attacking Britain more forcefully (good idea - but Germany isn't launching any Sealion still)

Answering (2) is:
Over the course of 1942 and 1943 - Clearing the Med. Take Sicily. Take Corsica and Sardina. Retake Crete. Retake (if needed) Malta.
Maybe take Norway.
Continental Europe is too tough to crack if Germany isn't occupied against the SU.

So it comes down to 1943 - The UK and USA are starting to win, but its really slow going and clearly not happening anytime soon. Does Stalin decide to jump in and attack Germany?

Probably not...

Which means its buckets of instant sunshine over Germany in August 1945 and a VERY rapid surrender and collapse of Germany thereafter... at which point Stalin does jump in to take Poland... and Romania.

The taking of Malta and the Germans sending 4 Panzer Divisions to Libya with no Barbarossa would lead to the fall of Egypt in 1941.
 
Since fort-capuzzo has stated that the German forces sent to North Africa OTL accounted for one quarter of Germany's trucks this scenario apparently involves the Wehrmacht's entire supply of trucks being sent to Libya...
 
Since fort-capuzzo has stated that the German forces sent to North Africa OTL accounted for one quarter of Germany's trucks this scenario apparently involves the Wehrmacht's entire supply of trucks being sent to Libya...

The Italians produced 73,000 trucks in the war too.
As for extra forces being available will mean Tobruk and Benghazi are or retaken quickly and thus supply problems eased greatly.
Even more so when Alexandria falls.
 
Not happening. Germany cannot run a logistics train that long from Tripoli to Egypt to supply that number of divisions.

The Italians produced 73,000 trucks in the war too.
As for extra forces being available will mean Tobruk and Benghazi are or retaken quickly and thus supply problems eased greatly.
Even more so when Alexandria falls.
 
fort-capuzzo, you're reduced to repeating claims when you've done nothing to prove them, I see. I would ask what percentage of those Italian trucks produced during the war(1939-1945) do not yet exist in 1941 or will be needed to supply the Italian army in North Africa but I know I would be wasting my time...
 
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