No Barbarossa - Russia stays out

Getting carried away responding to the Russian issue.
If Hitler doesn’t invade Russia he will concentrate on smashing the allied landings in Southern Europe and Sardinia before attacking through Spain or Turkey to get at the allies.
If he doesn’t the Axis will die a slow death.

Agreed on the first point, but what's this abou Spain and Turkey? Hitler hoped that both would eventually join the Axis, and both had non-negligible armies that could be supported easily by the Allies. Of course, that just would put Hitler in worse straits, as more and more troops are tied down in Southern Europe when Stalin launches reverse-Barbarossa...
 
Getting carried away responding to the Russian issue.
If Hitler doesn’t invade Russia he will concentrate on smashing the allied landings in Southern Europe and Sardinia before attacking through Spain or Turkey to get at the allies.
If he doesn’t the Axis will die a slow death.

Highly unlikely, Turkey was generally pro-allies and even in the glory days of Nazi Germany with France out of the war, Franco knew to stay away, he most certainly wouldn't have joined a war against both France and Britain and presumably USA. Even if some ASB made Turkey or Spain join the Axis and German troops on their territory, presumably Turkey, because taking Gibraltar would be a bitch, and than crossing into Africa would be pretty much impossible, the supply lines would be unsustainable.
 
LOL, ditto for Yugoslavia, Belgium, Holland, Norway, Danemark.

Actually most of those were quite happy being neutral, they didn't turn to the allies until they got attacked.

Belgium refused allied troops on this territory as to not provoke Germany, same for Netherlands, they were hoping the war would avoid them like it did in WWI, Norway refused allied troops even when they were given proof of Germany's plans to invade and that was probably the situation with Danemark as well.

As for Yugoslavia... Hitler didn't care for the country one way or another and wouldn't have attacked in the first place if it wasn't for blundering Mussolini. Hitler went to save the italian army in Yugoslavia and Greece, otherwise there wouldn't have been a Balkan war to begin with.

When I replied to that post, I thought he meant that Turkey would join the Axis and let German troops in, which is highly unlikely, but not nearly as bad and unfeasable as going guns blazing into neutral Turkey and sending them into allied hands, Asia Minor is an easily defensiable area and considering they'd have allied troops pouring and absolutely no control in the Med, it would make any invasion of Turkey almost certainly doomed, and if Germany by some miracle actually manages to take Turkey they'd have the problem I already mentioned in the previous post, logistics, the supply lines would be so long and vulnerable to allied bombardament it would make any push further east of Turkey seem more like a suicide run than an actual offensive.
 

world

Banned
Agreed on the first point, but what's this abou Spain and Turkey? Hitler hoped that both would eventually join the Axis, and both had non-negligible armies that could be supported easily by the Allies. Of course, that just would put Hitler in worse straits, as more and more troops are tied down in Southern Europe when Stalin launches reverse-Barbarossa...

Well if the Spanish and Turks wont come on board Hitler would have little choice.
If he isnt invading the USSR how else will he get at the French and British?
 

world

Banned
I agree with you all saying it would not be likely at all that the Spanish and Turks will join the Axis and invasions will create problems but without attacking the USSR what has Hitler left to do?
 
With the French 3rd Army in Corsica, and being supplied by Lend-Lease, I would consider the German chance of taking it to be about the same as that Sea Mammal whe don't name.

I wonder about my moving Compass up from Decembre to Septembre, ?Would France be ready? But I needed to, in Order to allow the April Invasion of Sicily.

?However I'm Wondering what effect France still in the War, has on the Italian - Greek War.? ?And on the Balkans? ?German Invasion of [French Ally] Romania?

?How many Divisions did Germany have [not needed to stare across the East wall at the new Stalin Line] in Mid 1941, and can all the Spare Ones be sent south to Balkans & Italy.?

Given the Allies hold Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, And Part of [mainland] Greece, in June of 1941, ?Can they keep them till Decembre when The US Joins.?

Course My OP question, was about the Post War World,
With a devastated Italy [3 years of the Battle of Italy], No Vichy French, Free Poles - Poland, And American Soldiers sitting in the East Wall, staring at The Russians in the Stalin Wall.
 

world

Banned
With the French 3rd Army in Corsica, and being supplied by Lend-Lease, I would consider the German chance of taking it to be about the same as that Sea Mammal whe don't name.

How could Corsica be supplied in the face of such close Axis airpower?

I wonder about my moving Compass up from Decembre to Septembre, ?Would France be ready? But I needed to, in Order to allow the April Invasion of Sicily.

Good time line on the French attack on the Italians in Libya here.
July 1940.
http://francefightson.yuku.com/topic/686/t/July-1940-11-20-Including-Vichy-Coup-Jul-20th.html

The Italians manage to beat it off.
The British attack wont be read till the end of the year but will have a much better chance of success.

?However I'm Wondering what effect France still in the War, has on the Italian - Greek War.? ?And on the Balkans? ?German Invasion of [French Ally] Romania?

The effect would be that Italy is less reluctant to get involved with Greece when every bit of armour it has is needed in a rush to N Africa which wasn’t the case in OTL with no French threat and a much smaller British force in Egypt.
Mussolini won’t like the Germans in Romania as he considered it part of his zone of influence and it was one of the main reasons in OTL for the invasion of Greece.
But I would think Mussolini may leave Greece for now especially with his sites still set on Corsica, Nice, Savoy and Tunisia.



?How many Divisions did Germany have [not needed to stare across the East wall at the new Stalin Line] in Mid 1941, and can all the Spare Ones be sent south to Balkans & Italy.?

Depends how serious they take the Soviet threat.
I have a list of German division deployment by region by month through the war.
Ill see if I can find it for you.
But during 1940 while the bulk of the German army was in the West the East was only defended by about a tenth of that number if I remember rightly.
So the Germans will have the majority of their army to use elsewhere in 1940.


Given the Allies hold Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, And Part of [mainland] Greece, in June of 1941, ?Can they keep them till Decembre when The US Joins.?

I cant see the allies being able to capture any in 1940 or 41 let alone hold them.



Course My OP question, was about the Post War World,
With a devastated Italy [3 years of the Battle of Italy], No Vichy French, Free Poles - Poland, And American Soldiers sitting in the East Wall, staring at The Russians in the Stalin Wall.
[/QUOTE]

When will the Soviets attack Germany?
 
When will the Soviets attack Germany?
The whole thrust of this Thread is NO Russian German War. The RM Pact holds, and Neither attacks. I know - Given Hitler & Stalin almost ASB -- But......................
How could Corsica be supplied in the face of such close Axis airpower?
With difficulty, and lost freighters. I see all Britain's Carriers based at Tunisia. and conveying supplies to Corsica. Till after the Battle of Corsica [BoB analogue].

Given the Allies hold Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, And Part of [mainland] Greece, in June of 1941, ?Can they keep them till Decembre when The US Joins.?
I can't see the allies being able to capture any in 1940 or 41 let alone hold them.
I Can, & its part of the OP.
 

world

Banned
The whole thrust of this Thread is NO Russian German War. The RM Pact holds, and Neither attacks. I know - Given Hitler & Stalin almost ASB -- But......................
With difficulty, and lost freighters. I see all Britain's Carriers based at Tunisia. and conveying supplies to Corsica. Till after the Battle of Corsica [BoB analogue].

I Can, & its part of the OP.

Well the taking of Sardinia and Corsica is going to be very difficult and holding it even more so not worth the losses it will bring.
But to take and hold part of Greece with no Soviet Union in the war that is impossible.
 

world

Banned
Given the Allies hold Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, And Part of [mainland] Greece, in June of 1941, ?Can they keep them till Decembre when The US Joins.?

German divisions by region June 1941 OTL.

Germany - 38
Eastern - 93
Western - 51
Norway - 8
Finland - 3
South East Europe - 14
N Africa - 2

Now we can assume the two Panzer divisions from North Africa can be used to defend Italy.
There will be no divisions in Finland so those added to the 93 in Poland and Romania plus the forces in the South East will constitute a force of 110 divisions.
Thats around more than 40 divisions more than faced the entire British and American armies in France in 1944.
 

world

Banned
The Germans cant win the war sitting in Europe.
Even if the Axis lose Libya they have more than enough force to defend Corsica and Sardinia.
So if the attack on the Soviets is banned in this TL and Hitler has to win the war some how is best option would be an attack through Spain on Gibraltar then the transfer into Noth Africa.
Even if Franco says no it would be better to invade than sit in Europe waiting to die.
 
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