No Autobahn, instead refurbished Reichsbahn

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Deleted member 1487

Based on a couple of discussions on here lately the issue of the rail system of the Germans being inadequate and the Autobahn being useless came up. Long ago back in college I remember reading something similar, so when I looked into it again, it seems the Autobahn was effectively a useless investment until quite a while after the war and mostly just made invading Germany easier for the Allies. Apparently the Reichsbahn, the rail system, as severely worn out due to years of neglect thanks to the Great Depression, Weimar instability, and even overuse in WW1. The benefits of the Autobahn were mostly political it seems, stimulating the concrete industry, which helped Nazi donors, used a lot of unemployed labor, and made the career of Fritz Todt, while at the same time being a great photo-op for the Nazis who looked like the wave of the future, despite Hitler being against the Autobahn until shortly before deciding to invest in it. Meanwhile the rail system was left high and dry, a problem that would be acutely felt during the war and require Germany to end up manufacturing more locomotives than the major Allied powers combined to make up for losses and their pre-war deficits.

So what if the Nazis opted for practical instead of PR investments? What if the Reichsbahn got nearly all the Autobahn money to rebuild itself starting in 1933? How would that change the politics of Nazi Germany early on, given that Fritz Todt won't have his career made by the Autobahn project (the civilian rail system would be able to run it's own refurbishment), there wouldn't be nearly as great a PR opportunity for Hitler, as repairs/upgrades/new trains aren't as 'sexy' as a new highway system, and the concrete industry wouldn't get it's stimulus and cheap unemployed less skilled labor wouldn't find nearly as many jobs in Reichbahn contracting than with specifically Nazi led road construction jobs? Materially what would it mean to have a fully functional rail system for the Nazis down the road once war starts?
 
Is it possible to do both? I also figure working on rail system will help after invasion of Soviet Union in conversation of Soviet rail to compatible rail system.
 

Deleted member 1487

Is it possible to do both? I also figure working on rail system will help after invasion of Soviet Union in conversation of Soviet rail to compatible rail system.
I mean you can halve Autobahn resources for increase Reichsbahn investments.
 
On a different path I am working around a surviving Kaiserreich, similar to the Republic it uses the Reichsbahn to pay off war debt and suffers underinvestment during a global depression/cold war. This butterflies the Autobahn to only a few trunk pieces and keeps the German automotive industry smaller. In my opinion rail is the superior transportation choice until the 1950s, so I use the recovery to pour money into rail centric projects, higher speed and electrified passenger lines, new rolling stock, new locomotives, perhaps dieselization, capacity improvements that necessitate new bridges, and so on. I think it provides more employment across more than just construction labor, it revitalizes steel, machinery and tools, improves motor trucks and engineering equipment, electrical and power generation industries, etc. German automotive industry leans luxury as it appears to have anyway, road projects focus on urban areas and connections between cities, rural roads remain improved so the economy cars lean robust and capable of driving on mere gravel roads. I think we might still see a "Volkswagen" emerge but the real gain is improved trucks used in construction that lend themselves to military uses. The same light metal working skills / investment drifts to aviation. The next big public infrastructure investment would then be the Autobahn in the 1950s or 1960s when Germany's auto industry is ready to benefit the emerging middle class. (It competes with aerospace and nuclear power in my imagining).
 
Germany had tons of coal, would they go diesel?

For Germany diesel is a bad strategic choice but dieselization is far superior for the railroad industry itself. The next best option would be electrification to diversify into coal and hydroelectric and when nuclear comes on you are golden. But in my alternative Germany has access to Ottoman oil flowing freely out of Mesopotamia so it might see "cheap" oil squeeze out coal and electric from the 1940s through 1960s era, setting the industry on a course similar to how America went, it gives the automobile a big boost too. Aw, butterflies.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Based on a couple of discussions on here lately the issue of the rail system of the Germans being inadequate and the Autobahn being useless came up. Long ago back in college I remember reading something similar, so when I looked into it again, it seems the Autobahn was effectively a useless investment until quite a while after the war and mostly just made invading Germany easier for the Allies. Apparently the Reichsbahn, the rail system, as severely worn out due to years of neglect thanks to the Great Depression, Weimar instability, and even overuse in WW1. The benefits of the Autobahn were mostly political it seems, stimulating the concrete industry, which helped Nazi donors, used a lot of unemployed labor, and made the career of Fritz Todt, while at the same time being a great photo-op for the Nazis who looked like the wave of the future, despite Hitler being against the Autobahn until shortly before deciding to invest in it. Meanwhile the rail system was left high and dry, a problem that would be acutely felt during the war and require Germany to end up manufacturing more locomotives than the major Allied powers combined to make up for losses and their pre-war deficits.

So what if the Nazis opted for practical instead of PR investments? What if the Reichsbahn got nearly all the Autobahn money to rebuild itself starting in 1933? How would that change the politics of Nazi Germany early on, given that Fritz Todt won't have his career made by the Autobahn project (the civilian rail system would be able to run it's own refurbishment), there wouldn't be nearly as great a PR opportunity for Hitler, as repairs/upgrades/new trains aren't as 'sexy' as a new highway system, and the concrete industry wouldn't get it's stimulus and cheap unemployed less skilled labor wouldn't find nearly as many jobs in Reichbahn contracting than with specifically Nazi led road construction jobs? Materially what would it mean to have a fully functional rail system for the Nazis down the road once war starts?
Nice, not often illuminated What If.

For the highlightended parts : Why not ?
Given the permanent infighting, Todt could well do his rise with speed-building of railtracks as with highways.

If the plans for "refurbishing" the reichsbahn would get the same attention as the highways got, there will also be "scenic" constructions for railway-bridges, new stations all over the country to be opened and their groundbreaking ceremonies, "first nailing" of railtracks etc. for propaganda reasons.
What about some new "streamliner" fast-running trains ?

As said : railway-bridges and other buildings, new stations, engine halls, railway yards and marshalling yards with new, "great" reinforced concrete roofs etc. for the concrete industry.

Unemployed workers can be well used for "clearing" new trackways, for carrying the rails from delivery point to actual laying, for nailing. There's an awful lot of "handwork" to be generated with railbuilding, changing tracks and trackbeds.


IMO all you need is to "convince" the Führer, maybe with some model of these :
Henschel_Wegmann_Zug61002.jpg
stromlinienzug-city-of-denver.jpg
ima00.jpg
 

Deleted member 1487

Nice, not often illuminated What If.

For the highlightended parts : Why not ?
Given the permanent infighting, Todt could well do his rise with speed-building of railtracks as with highways.

If the plans for "refurbishing" the reichsbahn would get the same attention as the highways got, there will also be "scenic" constructions for railway-bridges, new stations all over the country to be opened and their groundbreaking ceremonies, "first nailing" of railtracks etc. for propaganda reasons.
What about some new "streamliner" fast-running trains ?

As said : railway-bridges and other buildings, new stations, engine halls, railway yards and marshalling yards with new, "great" reinforced concrete roofs etc. for the concrete industry.

Unemployed workers can be well used for "clearing" new trackways, for carrying the rails from delivery point to actual laying, for nailing. There's an awful lot of "handwork" to be generated with railbuilding, changing tracks and trackbeds.
For one thing the Reichsbahn itself would be in charge of the refurbishing, everything was already set up to handle it. Todt would actually make the project worse; IOTL he was able to do what he did with the Autobahn because there was no such engineering authority to handle a national project like that, which, much like the Luftwaffe, due to it never existing as an independent branch of government they could create a specific Nazi organization, which then enhances the PR effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Todt
Following the appointment of Hitler as Reichskanzler on 30 January 1933, Todt became (in July) Generalinspektor für das deutsche Straßenwesen ("Inspector General for German Roadways") and was involved in the new construction company for the motorways (Reichsautobahnen).[2] He later became Leiter des Hauptamts für Technik in der Reichsleitung der NSDAP ("Director of the Head Office for Engineering in the National Directorate of the NSDAP") and Generalbevollmächtigter für die Regelung der Bauwirtschaft ("General Commissioner for the Regulation of the Construction Industry"). As a special privilege, Todt was permitted to have considerable power and was not necessarily immediately answerable to any of the Reich ministries. He was also appointed to the rank of Generalmajor of the Luftwaffe after its official promulgation in March 1935. For his work on the autobahnen, Todt was recognized with the German National Prize for Art and Science by Hitler, an award devised as a replacement for the Nobel Prize which Hitler forbade Germans from accepting in 1936.

That actually was part of the reason the Reichsbahn's requests for refurbishment funding was denied: it was an existing Weimar/Imperial German institution and wouldn't give nearly as much of a PR stunt effect as the Nazi road ministry, set up by the chief Nazi party engineer, as a civil works project, which was also the first of it's kind in the world. Rail fix ups was too 'old school' for the Nazis, who wanted to paint themselves with the brush of modernity and as the new wave of culture as part of their revolutionary image. Certainly the Nazi party could highlight how they were modernizing the rail ways, but that doesn't have nearly the same PR effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsautobahn#Planning_and_construction
However, HAFRABA was never able to surmount the logistical problems of building a highway through many different jurisdictions,[3][10] or the funding problems of such a large undertaking.[11]Moreover, legislators condemned it as a luxury project that would benefit only the few wealthy enough to own cars; the Nazi Party was against public spending on highways for this reason,[12] as were the Communists and the Reichsbahn, the German national railroad, which feared highways would take some of its freight business.[11] Even the association of German car manufacturers did not support highway projects; they were concerned that long-distance driving would overtax their vehicles.[10]

Planning and construction

Hitler shoveling dirt at the ceremonial inauguration of Reichsautobahn construction; behind him on the right Fritz Todt, on the left two workers helping him

After the Nazis came to power at the end of January 1933, their position changed rapidly. Fritz Todt produced a report arguing for the building of highways, Straßenbau und Straßenverwaltung, known as the "Brown Report" (Braune Denkschrift or Brauner Bericht),[13] and in a speech at the Berlin Motor Show on February 11, Hitler presented it as a necessity and as the future measure of a people, as railroads had been in the past.[14] A law establishing the Reichsautobahn project under that name was passed on June 27, 1933, and the Gesellschaft Reichsautobahnen (Reichsautobahns Association) was founded on August 25 as a subsidiary of the Reichsbahn, thereby removing its objections.[15] Todt was named Generalinspektor für das deutsche Straßenwesen (Inspector-General for the German Road System) on June 30. HAFRABA and other organizations were folded into the planning arm, known as GEZUVOR (Gesellschaft zur Vorbereitung der Reichsautobahn, Society for the Preparation of the Reichsautobahn).[16][17] The Chairman of the Board of HAFRABA, Dr. Ludwig Landmann, the Mayor of Frankfurt, was Jewish, which provided the Nazis with a reason to take it over.[18] The autobahn was presented to the German public as Hitler's idea: he was represented as having sketched out the future network of highways while in Landsberg Prison in 1924.[19] They were to be "the Führer's roads", a myth promoted by Todt himself, who coined the phrase and warned close associates not to "in any way [let] the impression arise that I built the autobahns. They are to be reckoned as simply and solely the Führer's roads".[20] Hof, an enthusiastic party member, resigned on December 22, 1934; the editor of the HAFRABA magazine, Kurt Kaftan, had caused a political problem by presenting Hof as the originator of the idea, or jointly responsible for it with Hitler.[17] The overlapping responsibilities of the Gesellschaft Reichsautobahnen (in charge of construction) and of Todt's office (in charge of planning but also of all roads in the Reich) exemplified the growth of central authorities in the Third Reich and inevitably led to conflicts, but only on January 1, 1941 was the Gesellschaft Reichsautobahnen removed from the Reichsbahn and placed directly under Todt.[21]

I know by arguing this I'm arguing against the premise of the thread and you for it, but there is perhaps and argument there for the Nazis being somewhat more pragmatic in terms of long term planning for war...but then they wouldn't have been the Romantics that they were. Todt too had his own reasons for pushing the project, it was a chance for him to start empire building (he did the same with the West Wall project and a variety of other engineering works like the Subpens and Atlantik Wall). So I'm not sure how we get the POD, though I certainly agree that there was plenty of chance for PR works and practical public works stuff provided the Nazis were willing to work within the Reichsbahn organization, while then also building up strategic roads as necessary within perhaps HAFRABA
 
they had example of U-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn it would seem ideal for a totalitarian regime to have underground metro systems and rail links between cities?

they could have clandestine movement under every city and control somewhat movement between cities (for instance troop movements during a coup?)

my understanding Germans had more, and got more use out of railguns than any other country WWII? (with more extensive rail and U-Bahn network they might even avoid some of the oversized guns?)
 

Deleted member 97083

What if the Autobahn goes as OTL, but the funding from the rocketry program (which was ultimately pretty useless) is instead diverted to the Reichsbahn and steel production?
 

Deleted member 1487

they had example of U-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn it would seem ideal for a totalitarian regime to have underground metro systems and rail links between cities?

they could have clandestine movement under every city and control somewhat movement between cities (for instance troop movements during a coup?)

my understanding Germans had more, and got more use out of railguns than any other country WWII? (with more extensive rail and U-Bahn network they might even avoid some of the oversized guns?)
Between cities underground??? What advantage would that have had for regular rail transportation? At that point they'd be better off trying to make a hyperloop:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain

What if the Autobahn goes as OTL, but the funding from the rocketry program (which was ultimately pretty useless) is instead diverted to the Reichsbahn and steel production?
The rocket program got nearly all it's funding late in the war, so it wouldn't have been helpful in this pre-war period. The pre-war rocket budget was peanuts compared to the cost of the Autobahn.
 
they had example of U-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn it would seem ideal for a totalitarian regime to have underground metro systems and rail links between cities?

Between cities underground??? What advantage would that have had for regular rail transportation? At that point they'd be better off trying to make a hyperloop:

OMG of course not underground BETWEEN cities, have U-Bahn under the major cities and the cities connected with normal conventional railways. sorry if that was unclear.
 

Deleted member 1487

OMG of course not underground BETWEEN cities, have U-Bahn under the major cities and the cities connected with normal conventional railways. sorry if that was unclear.
What is the advantage to having it underground if it is above ground elsewhere?
 
What is the advantage to having it underground if it is above ground elsewhere?

referring to having an expanded system of underground transit as complement or extension of the rail network, most of Berlin U-Bahn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_U-Bahn was in existence prior to Nazi regime coming to power, so there would be ready example to replicate in other major cities.

(for instance the Munich U-Bahn didn't open until 1970's IOTL)

as to why metro transit underground? believe they examined raised tracks but quickly discarded the idea.
 
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