no 1922 treaty of Washigton

http://www.navsource.org/
on this sites about american ships there are more ships projected on wwII nothing completed or cancelled or after WWI cancelled by Treaty of Washington ! With my surprise i have discovered an other Battleship Montana (BB-51) (of wwII is BB-67) of CLASS - South Dakota cancelled by Treaty of Washington !
 
Washington Treaty

The Washington and London treaties' influence on captial ship construction can not, IMHO, be overestimated. It put artificial limits on the size and firepower, as well as cancelling numerous ships of many nations. There are several good books out there concerning the effects, which are too major to go into in a short post here. The USA cancelled 13 battleships and battlecruisers that were already laid down. This left the USA with 12 ships suited for the line of battle (Nevada and later) plus the older ships.
Other nations trimmed as well.
 
To my mind the speculation is fascinating. The British with their G3s and N3s, the United States with the South Dakotas and Lexingtons, Japan with their Amagis and Kagas.

Other nations had ships uncompleted from before the war - France with the Normandies and Italy with the Carraciolos.

The concerns were several :-

1. That these building projects were eating up huge amounts of money that would be better used for social programmes

2. That the new naval race might prove as destabilising as the pre-WW1 had been, and lead directly to war

3. That the ships being built at such huge cost were being out-classed by other planned ships even as they were building or laid down !

To my mind, point 3 is the most serious as this made the various naval departments doubt the value of completing ships that were better than anything else they already had. If by the time you've built your wonder ship, the potential enemy has laid down a mega super battleship, then do you respond at additional great cost or concede ?

Because it was beginning to seem pointless the navies were more open to accepting the idea of a treaty of limitation than if it had simply been a question of economics or political fears.

Grey Wolf
 
hans said:
http://www.navsource.org/
on this sites about american ships there are more ships projected on wwII nothing completed or cancelled or after WWI cancelled by Treaty of Washington ! With my surprise i have discovered an other Battleship Montana (BB-51) (of wwII is BB-67) of CLASS - South Dakota cancelled by Treaty of Washington !

Given the fact that there were 48 states at the time and battleships were named after states it shouldn't be too surprising that there are repeats in the US Navy.

Both NHBL and Grey Wolf make excellent points. I don't think there is any indication, unless we accept strictly economics and in service bias, that we still wouldn't see the rise of the aircraft carrier by the outbreak of the Second World War. It could be that the respective Big Gun Clubs of each navy will bankrupt themselves by building their circa 1922 warships and lose ground throughout the 1930s to the Carrier School.
 
One could image most naval nations (US, Germany, France, Japan, even Italy) building up their capital ships while the UK (the only one with carriers in WWI) quitiely building up a carrier and flying boat force, most likely leading to shocking victory in any 30's naval conflict and a carrier-race...

Simon ;)
 
simonbp said:
One could image most naval nations (US, Germany, France, Japan, even Italy) building up their capital ships while the UK (the only one with carriers in WWI) quitiely building up a carrier and flying boat force, most likely leading to shocking victory in any 30's naval conflict and a carrier-race...

Simon ;)

Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen with the POD suggested. The Royal Navy lost control of its aerial arm by an decision made during the Great War by which all aircraft and pilots would come under the responsibility of the Royal Air Force. The RAF virtually strangled British naval aviation during the 1920s and 1930s, and there was very little the Royal Navy could do about it.
 
David S Poepoe said:
Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen with the POD suggested. The Royal Navy lost control of its aerial arm by an decision made during the Great War by which all aircraft and pilots would come under the responsibility of the Royal Air Force. The RAF virtually strangled British naval aviation during the 1920s and 1930s, and there was very little the Royal Navy could do about it.

Also, the RN would never have stood by and watched other navies building bigger and better battleships. They would have had to respond by matching them.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum
 
Tony Williams said:
Also, the RN would never have stood by and watched other navies building bigger and better battleships. They would have had to respond by matching them.

Assuming, of course, that the UK had enough money to pay for these new toys :)

Furthermore, do not forget the discussion arising about the KGV class that was only armed with 14" rifles, while the other powers built at least 15" rifles...
 
A non Washington Treaty world would be interesting. But it is worth baring in mind all of the big three have limiting factors.

Japan: From what I've read Japan couldn't really afford much more than she was allowed by the treaty. In a post WW1 arms race she would be the first to drop out.

America: In terms of economics the USA is the strongest of the big three. But post WW1 there is a strong tenancy towards isolationism. Basically all America got out of WW1 was the influenza. On the other hand the Americans were ticked about the British blockade. Conclusion America's main limiting factor is political will

UK: Okay Britain has just come out of a long and damaging war. However Britain is still far from the economic disaster zone that it will be at the close of WW2. Naval supremacy was one of the big factors that pulled Britain into WW1 and now post war they are not going to abandon that. If an arms race starts Britain is going to seek at least parity with the Americans.
 
Ebar said:
A non Washington Treaty world would be interesting. But it is worth baring in mind all of the big three have limiting factors.

Japan: From what I've read Japan couldn't really afford much more than she was allowed by the treaty. In a post WW1 arms race she would be the first to drop out.

What about Yamato?
 
Condottiero said:
What about Yamato?

The Yamato and her sister ships weren't part of the Washington Treaty period, and it would be probably safe to assume that Japan could afford those two or so particular ships while not the entire '8-8 Plan' package. Also there is a difference of at least 15 years between 1922 and when the Yamatos were first conceived to allow the national economy to improve.

I've seen it proven financially that the Royal Navy could have afford to build the G3 class on the www.warships1.com website. This would have been within the naval budget of the 1920s, if I remember right. The main problem, as pointed out earlier, is escalation in tonnage and gun caliber.

The 14in guns of the King George V class were chosen more on political merits, that gun caliber of new ships could be limited to 14in by the London Treaty. Unfortunately, the Japanese pulled out and the US responded in kind. The Americans simply upped the gun caliber of their battleships to 16in, which was an option not available to the British.
 
The problem with Japan is the 1923 Tokyo earthquake. Without it, Japan could afford to build more and better ships, as planned. Yes, it is a large proportion of GDP but look at Germany pre-1914 to see what percentages mean. Japan can afford it barring an economic collapse. The problem for them, as for the other nations, is that the ships under construction are already being eclipsed by planned vessels of other powers.

Political will is the key to the other three main powers here. In Britain we are approaching the first Labour government. In the USA the president did not think he could get monies from Congress to complete the ships already building

Grey Wolf
 
Grey Wolf said:
The problem with Japan is the 1923 Tokyo earthquake. Without it, Japan could afford to build more and better ships, as planned. Yes, it is a large proportion of GDP but look at Germany pre-1914 to see what percentages mean. Japan can afford it barring an economic collapse. The problem for them, as for the other nations, is that the ships under construction are already being eclipsed by planned vessels of other powers.

Political will is the key to the other three main powers here. In Britain we are approaching the first Labour government. In the USA the president did not think he could get monies from Congress to complete the ships already building

Grey Wolf
...I like imagine a delay (little or great) of this ships
 
Treaty vs SuperFleet

"It's a very kinky line
The type you don't take into battle..."

Discussion of this topic usually resolves into a false Either/Or. Without a 1922 I think we'd likely see a later treaty with somewhat larger limits (say 20-30% more tons). Each major fleet has 2-3 of the scrapped designs.

Tom
 
sikitu said:
Assuming, of course, that the UK had enough money to pay for these new toys :)

Furthermore, do not forget the discussion arising about the KGV class that was only armed with 14" rifles, while the other powers built at least 15" rifles...

My comment was in response to the suggestion that the British concentrate on building aircraft carriers instead of battleships - that was simply a non-starter, for the reason I gave.

As I'm sure you know, the British decision to go for 14 inch ships was one of circumstance and timing; they did not deliberately decide to build smaller-gunned ships than the other navies, they hoped that others would follow suit.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum
 
Tony Williams said:
My comment was in response to the suggestion that the British concentrate on building aircraft carriers instead of battleships - that was simply a non-starter, for the reason I gave.

As I'm sure you know, the British decision to go for 14 inch ships was one of circumstance and timing; they did not deliberately decide to build smaller-gunned ships than the other navies, they hoped that others would follow suit.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree with your comment.
 

Redbeard

Banned
"No WT TL" can mean many things, from basically the same political/economical situation, just without the treaty, to the real PoD being drastically changed political/economical conditions making the treaty superflous/impossible.

The first scenario will probably mean more of the planned ships being completed, at least in USA and GB, but rather than a formal treaty setting the limit the powers will anxiously watch each other and not build more than prestige and basic security considerations demands.

France and Italy in OTL build less than the treaty allowed, they simply didn't have neither the money - nor the needs. I very much doubt if Japan will be capable of finishing anything close to the imagined 8-8 programe, certainly not with the 1923 earthquake in place. From the Russo-Japanese War Japan really was broke and politically in chaos well into the 1930's, when something similar to fascists took over and utilised every drop for military purposes.

As others have already said GB wasn't anywhere near broke after WWI, but there was a great wish to take home the peace dividend (= taxreductions and social reforms). Had there been obvious threats to the Empire (like an openly hostile USA or Japan) I'm sure funding for even huge naval programmes would be found. In a TL without significant pol/ec PoD's I guess that at least the G3's would be completed, but the N3's would await what the other powers would do. The British have the advantage of being at least one step ahead in design at this time, and in having a well balanced fleet with a well defined strategic role (defending the Empire - strategic defence).

USA no doubt had the greatest economical resources but in many ways was caught on the wrong leg with the huge naval programme under way in 1922. The designs were extemporations on designs that had been revolutionary before WWI (Nevada - Standard), but by 1922 were obsolescent. Next the USN was unbalanced and especially needed good cruisers to scout, and finally there really wasn't a clearly defined strategic role for the USN. If the task just was defending US coastlines a much smaller and less expensive navy could do it, and by 1920's USA didn't have anything resembling an Empire needing a huge navy to keep it together. But one factor must not be overlooked when talking battleships and that is the prestige and symbolism linked to these giants. By 1920's USA had over the last couple of decades grown a huge self-awareness as a rising great power - but by early 20th century that wouldn't give any meaning without battleships. That explains why the USN was so battleship heavy and why landpowers like Germany and A-H spent huge sums on battleship navies. No matter how stupid or superflous those battleships would be in the strategic situation of those countries they really weren't left with any choice - great power status simply required BB's - but compared to Germany and A-H USA at least had abundant resources and didn't neigbour a huge landpower.

Without a WT I guess most of the ships already on the slips (Colorado, Lexington and South Dakota classes) would have been completed, and that would have satisfied the prestige considerations, but funding for new ships would have been extremely difficult after that - until an obviously dangerous enemy shows up (and then it may be too late). But completing all these ships inside a few years probably also gives the British the necessary legitemacy and funding for going ahead with the N3 programmes, unless they are smart enough to just continue the G3 programme.

The very interesting point is however if a continued naval construction race in the 1920's would have prevented or at least lessened the later crisis. That crisis in many ways was severey reinforced because governments tried to save their ways out of it, but thus only slowed down the wheels by cutting demand. In this context naval construction of some extent would simply have circulated a lot of money creating demand - in short a basic Keynesian cure - which was developed for exactly this situation (of a "understimulated" demand).

I'm sure there could be found more effective or direct methods than building battleships, but at least the battleships look great.

BTW regarding the technical development cost will soon put limits on battleship size. It will become inceasingly clear that even 50, 60 or 70.000 ton giants will be vulnerable and navies will start to look for more cost-effective ways of sinking ships - so no way to avoid torpedoes, subs, mines and aircraft...

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
I very much doubt if Japan will be capable of finishing anything close to the imagined 8-8 programe, certainly not with the 1923 earthquake in place. From the Russo-Japanese War Japan really was broke and politically in chaos well into the 1930's, when something similar to fascists took over and utilised every drop for military purposes.

I think you are seriously under-estimating Japan. Look at what they DID build historically, and consider that the Washington Treaty's ratio was a major disappointment for them. They expected to have a better ratio, and to my mind this implies they expected to be able to complete at least a couple of the ships under construction - maybe Amagi and Kaga, or perhaps Amagi and Akagi

The 1923 Earthquake is a difficult factor, but I would think that with a higher ratio Japan would complete the ships eventually, maybe by the late 1920s. Without a treaty, and with damage to Amagi, maybe they only complete Akagi and Kaga as improved versions of their original design.

Either way it would do interesting things to Japanese aircraft carrier development

Grey Wolf
 
Redbeard said:
BTW regarding the technical development cost will soon put limits on battleship size. It will become inceasingly clear that even 50, 60 or 70.000 ton giants will be vulnerable and navies will start to look for more cost-effective ways of sinking ships - so no way to avoid torpedoes, subs, mines and aircraft...

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

Actually, I doubt it. Reading the co-edited by Brown 'The eclipse of the big gun' (or similar - its upstairs) one is as usual struck by how much about everything I didn't know. One aspect of this is the large number of tests and provings that air power could not sink a battleship. Mitchell was actually discounted by the RN for example, and they carried out their own tests that seemed to prove that armour could be adequately designed for a 50k ton ship to make it safe against air attack at its worse.

Grey Wolf
 
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