No 1918 Armistice, could France keep fighting?

Hi all,

So, we know that Germany got crushed under the weight of the war, and that it could not sustain it anymore.

Now, I've never heard much about the state of France at that point. Sure, there was a lot of debt and destruction, but could it have gone for one more year?

This is not a France fights alone scenario, timeline goes forward, just no armistice in Autumn 1918 (maybe no Spring offensive?)
 
Hi all,

So, we know that Germany got crushed under the weight of the war, and that it could not sustain it anymore.

Now, I've never heard much about the state of France at that point. Sure, there was a lot of debt and destruction, but could it have gone for one more year?

This is not a France fights alone scenario, timeline goes forward, just no armistice in Autumn 1918 (maybe no Spring offensive?)

France has Great Britain, Germany has ??? and France has THE trump card, the United States of America. Short of something somehow crippling the US (stopping/ reversing the manpower inflow, and US food/money), France stays in till Germany collapses
 
France was at its lowest ebb in 1917 with a severe breakdown in morale and discipline following the failure of the Nivelle Offensive to achieve a decisive victory.

By 1918 the army had recuperated under Petain's careful management and was in a much better position to fight, with the knowledge of US assistance further bolstering morale.

So even if the Germans last into 1919 the French are very much in the game and prepared to see it through to victory.
 
There were very severe manpower issues. As Pyrrhic Victory notes:

As Pétain continued preparations to defend against a massive German
attack, a severe shortage of personnel continued to shape his actions. An
assessment in early October 1917 anticipated that the army would receive
110,000 new recruits every month until September 1918 but still be short
100,000 soldiers at the end of that period. Such a shortage would require
the French to suppress twenty-four battalions, the equivalent of six divisions.
As shortages began hampering operations, Pétain dissolved three
divisions in November 1917. That same month, another study anticipated
a shortage of 200,000 men by November 1918 and the suppression of
nine divisions. Mid-December 1917 brought a more extreme assessment
of France’s personnel situation. The study assumed the French would
lose 920,000 soldiers between October 1, 1917, and October 1, 1918; this
ªgure matched the losses suffered from July 1, 1916, to July 1, 1917. The
study also said that the army required an additional 158,000 men if it was
to increase its artillery, engineers, aviation, and antiaircraft units. The
combination of projected losses and anticipated additions meant that the
army required 1,078,000 recruits. Since the army expected to receive
only 750,000 new recruits during this period, the study projected a
deªcit of 328,000 men. This deªcit equaled twenty-ªve divisions (including
three already dissolved), the ªgure cited by Pétain at the SupremeWar
Council meeting on January 30, 1918.With six divisions in Italy
and eight in Macedonia, Pétain expected to have only seventy-seven
divisions in France in October 1918.23 Though one could quarrel with
the assumptions and conclusions of this bleak assessment, the specter of
a crisis in personnel continued to inºuence Pétain’s preference for limited
offensives within a defensive strategy. Similarly, many of his criticisms
of Foch’s ideas came from his fears that the French would run out
of men.

This continued in practice and the French continued to search around for manpower. So you are probably going to see a continued evolution of the French military which constantly reduces the number of line infantry, constantly expanding the number of specialist units, and possible declines in army size as a whole. On the positive side, the French colonial recruitment drive had made very impressive gains in the last year of the war, many of whom didn't manage to get into combat because the war ended. This will go some way to offsetting the declining manpower sizes.

As a whole France can continue to fight, as it has the allies, it has a huge surplus of equipment and production, and its manpower matters can be managed. But it will be forced to adapt and its own independent capability in the war will fall as its infantry formations suffer, and it relies more on colonial cannon fodder and providing material support for its allies.
 
Hi all,

So, we know that Germany got crushed under the weight of the war, and that it could not sustain it anymore.

Now, I've never heard much about the state of France at that point. Sure, there was a lot of debt and destruction, but could it have gone for one more year?

This is not a France fights alone scenario, timeline goes forward, just no armistice in Autumn 1918 (maybe no Spring offensive?)

In the autumn of 1918, on the one hand France had the best army in the world. It had won a technical and tactical war by conceiving, producing, deploying and using the first effective tanks.
And on the other hand Germany was crumbling.

So yes, militarily the French army could on its own go to Berlin. That was their plan : attacking from France and from the Balkans with Franchet d’Esperey’s army.

The point is the French government did not give the green light to the French army commanders because its British and US allies did not want France to crush Germany.

Now if the French government decided to act on its own despite British and US disapproval, I don’t think Britain and the US could prevent it. But they would anyway be decisive in the peace settlement and would probably be more opposed to French demands than OTL.
 
The point is the French government did not give the green light to the French army commanders because its British and US allies did not want France to crush Germany.
Can you expand on that point a bit? Sounds interesting
 
France is developing its light tanks

Its forces are increasingly operating with US allies

It can sustain another year of war because of the USA
 
So yes, militarily the French army could on its own go to Berlin. That was their plan : attacking from France and from the Balkans with Franchet d’Esperey’s army.

That I'll disagree with. Yes the French Army had largely recovered its morale by 1918, but now you're having them push several hundred more miles, by themselves, to take Berlin. What do you think the Germans are going to do once their homes are being invaded? The French Army is going to bleed hard to take Berlin, and I doubt French citizens are going to happy about that.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Hi all,

So, we know that Germany got crushed under the weight of the war, and that it could not sustain it anymore.

Now, I've never heard much about the state of France at that point. Sure, there was a lot of debt and destruction, but could it have gone for one more year?

This is not a France fights alone scenario, timeline goes forward, just no armistice in Autumn 1918 (maybe no Spring offensive?)

Yes, but it starts to look more like A-H after the Brusilov offensive, largely unable to conduct offense operations on its own. The USA will supply an increasingly large share of the casualties, and the probably 3-4 million USA troops in France will make up for the shortfalls in France's manpower.
 
As noted, French manpower was effectively exhausted by 1918 and they only managed to remain in the fight because the Americans were increasingly taking over their sectors of the front. In the event of Ludendorff not extending the offer of armistice talks at the end of September of 1918, Germany could continue to holdout into 1919 while I very much doubted the Anglo-French could and the Americans did not have the stomach to sustain the casualties needed to decisively defeat the Imperial Army.
 
As noted, French manpower was effectively exhausted by 1918 and they only managed to remain in the fight because the Americans were increasingly taking over their sectors of the front. In the event of Ludendorff not extending the offer of armistice talks at the end of September of 1918, Germany could continue to holdout into 1919 while I very much doubted the Anglo-French could and the Americans did not have the stomach to sustain the casualties needed to decisively defeat the Imperial Army.
Interesting. Then side question, say the American don't come right away, deployment is delayed by months, how long can the French keep fighting without those reinforcements actually being there?
 
It all depends on the USA's commitment. Worst case for France, they commit to an invasion and the US gets cold feet. France and Britain are bled white, demand insane terms, Germany goes Red in the Spartkist revolution and the Bolsheviks capitalize. USA blames this on the Entente and pulls out, letting Wall Street financiers start to call in loans from the Entente. Financial and military catastrophe, USA angry because in their view the Entente caused this by demanding what they see as crazy terms, Red Bloc from the Rhine to the Pacific and massive social unrest. Right wing revanchist surge in France. WW2 happens earlier than OTL and is a gigantic miserable slog for all involved. Two generations of European youth lost. Colonies throw out the masters and go their own way. America says "we told you so". World except for America poorer and more miserable than OTL. Postcolonial order somewhat more peaceful and stable due to faster and more abrupt European exit, though.

Just my 2 cents anyway.
 
Interesting. Then side question, say the American don't come right away, deployment is delayed by months, how long can the French keep fighting without those reinforcements actually being there?

They can't; the French probably would've broke in the Spring of 1918.
 
Interesting. Then side question, say the American don't come right away, deployment is delayed by months, how long can the French keep fighting without those reinforcements actually being there?
France falls. The situation in late 1917 was really, really bad for France and the military was about to quit. Morale was garbage and manpower was lower. They were one big mutiny from total collapse.
 
France falls. The situation in late 1917 was really, really bad for France and the military was about to quit. Morale was garbage and manpower was lower. They were one big mutiny from total collapse.
More precisely, in the real world, when you look at the mutinies, you see that they wanted to fight on and win, but NOT to get thrown uselessly at machine guns for no gain whatsoever. The mutinies were mainly caused by the idiocy of the various tactics rather than defeatism.
 
So, from "While the doughboys did not win the war for the Allies, France might have collapsed and the Allies lost had the Americans not entered battle energetically and effectively a year after declaring war. " in your article, you get a clear and absolute conclusion of collapse, while Keegan himself acknowledged that the mutinies involved a pretty limited number of divisions and did not threaten a general military collapse.

Yeah.
 
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