Niall Ferguson looks at if 9/11 had not happened.

Anyone else insulted by the sly accusation that Muslims would all listen to a guy like Bin Laden? I knew that he bought into that Eurabia shit, but come on! How can someone so stupid get so far in academia?
Not anymore insulting then the realities of Germans having listened to Hitler or Afghans to the Taliban, surely?
 
Not anymore insulting then the realities of Germans having listened to Hitler or Afghans to the Taliban, surely?

All Muslims is not the same as all Germans (no more than a minority of which ever voted for Hitler) or all Afghans (the non-Pathan minorities generally not getting on at all well with the Taliban, AFAIK). If you cannot make the distinction between the very different categories of "All Muslims" and "All Germans", you do not have the capacity to participate in a discussion re Muslims and need to go and do some reading to catch up with those who can.

Bruce

Edit: also, it took the Great Depression and WWI to get Germany to the point where Hitler really got listened to, and it took a decade and a half of apocalyptic warfare shattering the fabric of Afghanistan to get things to the point where the Taliban could take over. And neither were one guy making speeches in a jail cell.
 
Last edited:
Side-track: How often do people compare Eurabia to the Know-Nothings? They both have the same basis of fear that a alien religion is subverting free society, and appeared in periods of economic turmoil and they'd be helpful in teasing out why Eurabia fears have flared-up now.
 
Niall is an odd fish - he seems to be somehow sucessfully managing to be the poster boy of popular history writing of the Right in both the US and the UK.

It seems like the opinion here is to read his earlier stuff before he went on his current phase of populist, politically influenced work
 
All Muslims is not the same as all Germans (no more than a minority of which ever voted for Hitler) or all Afghans (the non-Pathan minorities generally not getting on at all well with the Taliban, AFAIK). If you cannot make the distinction between the very different categories of "All Muslims" and "All Germans", you do not have the capacity to participate in a discussion re Muslims and need to go and do some reading to catch up with those who can.
Firstly, I don't think Fergie's ridiculous hypothetical was implying all Muslims. Secondly it wasn't referring to Muslims so much as Saudi Arabians(and then some other Arab countries falling though domino effect). "German" is more or less analogous to "Saudi Arabian"/"Arab"(depending on whether you consider the latter or former to be their nationality), no?

In any case I can't see why generalizing about religions is worse then generalizing about nations, if anything it should be the other way around because it's easier to change your religion then to change your nationality.

Edit: also, it took the Great Depression and WWI to get Germany to the point where Hitler really got listened to, and it took a decade and a half of apocalyptic warfare shattering the fabric of Afghanistan to get things to the point where the Taliban could take over. And neither were one guy making speeches in a jail cell.
True. Hmm, what's the single most abhorrent regime to come to power in a peaceful and prosperous time period? Maybe the Iranian Islamists would be a good example, although they weren't/aren't as bad as Osama Bin Laden.
 
Last edited:
Firstly, I don't think Fergie's ridiculous hypothetical was implying all Muslims. Secondly it wasn't referring to Muslims so much as Saudi Arabians(and then some other Arab countries falling though domino effect). "German" is more or less analogous to "Saudi Arabian"/"Arab"(depending on whether you consider the latter or former to be their nationality), no?.


you were responding to a statement in which the original writer was referring to Muslims in general, not Arabs. And Arabs as a whole are rather less homogenous than Germans.

In any case I can't see why generalizing about religions is worse then generalizing about nations, if anything it should be the other way around because it's easier to change your religion then to change your nationality..


Hm? All you have to do to change your nationality is move... perhaps you means ethnicity? And a world religion will include a much more varied cast of characters than any single nationality...indeed, I don't really get the logic of your statement.

Bruce
 
Bin Laden's Islamic Republic of Arabia? That's something I'd expect out of Spike's Alternate History show. :rolleyes:


It's just nigh impossible to visualize what Saudi Arabia (of all places!) would be like with a theocratic government that dominates society with its lopsided interpretation of what they think the Koran says.


Seriously, what would Bin Laden do differently, other than be a mean prick to America et al?

And how much fun would that be when the country is no longer selling oil to its former main consumers?
 
you were responding to a statement in which the original writer was referring to Muslims in general, not Arabs. And Arabs as a whole are rather less homogenous than Germans.
To quote the writer in question:

"It triggers a wave of popular anger in the Middle East that topples any regime seen as too close to Washington.The government of Qatar—gone. The government of Kuwait—gone. Above all, the government of Saudi Arabia—gone"...

He doesn't mention any non-Arab regimes.

We saw Arab Spring riots throughout most of the Arab countries so the idea of unrest and revolutions concentrated among Arab countries is not inherently bigoted. Saying they would be inspired to do so by Osama Bin Laden in a time of peace(and for many, prosperity) might be bigoted(and impossible given the weaker presence of communication tech at the time), but it is contrary to recently demonstrated reality to claim that the idea of widespread movements among Arabs is inherently bigoted.

And their is an issue that they are effectively homogeneous and very passionate about- resentment of American and Israeli behavior in the Middle East.(Notwithstanding some gratitude from Gulf states for driving Saddam out of Kuwait and recent gratitude from Libyans for the American intervention.)


Hm? All you have to do to change your nationality is move... perhaps you means ethnicity? And a world religion will include a much more varied cast of characters than any single nationality...indeed, I don't really get the logic of your statement.
All you have to do to change your religion is stop believing in it. The followers of a religious faith have at least key tenants in common(not withstanding oddities like the supposedly Christian Mormons or supposedly Muslim Druze)... people of a given nation don't have anything in common, culturally(unless it's an overwhelmingly homogeneous one like North Korea)


Seriously, what would Bin Laden do differently, other than be a mean prick to America et al?

And how much fun would that be when the country is no longer selling oil to its former main consumers?
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...di-arabia-monarchy-killing-of-christians.html

Aside from a shall we say "hawkish" foreign policy, they claim they'd commit genocide against Christians in Saudi Arabia. I'd also expect them to treat the Shiites worse(outright purging them would not be shocking). They'd have an economic policy of nationalization and probably hostile to consumerism. They'd do everything possible to cut off Saudi Arabia from Western culture, up to and including cutting off the internet(like Iran is trying presently). The economy would be far poorer and less stable, but also more egalitarian.

On the upside they'd stop and probably undo the Saudi's horrid commercialization of Mecca, and they'd be less racist towards immigrants of Sunni faith perhaps even treating them like humans or even as equals rather then the serf-like treatment they currently suffer.
 
Last edited:
I'm curious about how the man can believe that Arabs are so stupid that a single denunciation by Osama of the US from his prison cell (I dunno about Saudi prisons, but I'm quite sure that they do not really allow the inmates to make televised speeches or even the most rough videos in there)


so true!

if he was in an American prison, he'd have a chance to write children's books (see Tookie Williams) but, yeah, Saudis and prisoner rights, ha ha
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...di-arabia-monarchy-killing-of-christians.html

Aside from a shall we say "hawkish" foreign policy, they claim they'd commit genocide against Christians in Saudi Arabia. I'd also expect them to treat the Shiites worse(outright purging them would not be shocking). They'd have an economic policy of nationalization and probably hostile to consumerism. They'd do everything possible to cut off Saudi Arabia from Western culture, up to and including cutting off the internet(like Iran is trying presently). The economy would be far poorer and less stable, but also more egalitarian.

On the upside they'd stop and probably undo the Saudi's horrid commercialization of Mecca, and they'd be less towards immigrants of Sunni faith perhaps even treating them like humans or even as equals rather then the serf-like treatment they currently suffer.

the article was interesting.

they are definitely genocide-friendly...

al qaeda needs a slogan.


"Al Qaeda: We're Major-League Assholes!"
 
Top