New York without New Netherlands

WI the Dutch never settles the Hudson estuary (and so no New Netherlands exists)? Would the Pilgrims extend their domain further to the south or a more Mid-Atlantic colony would appear in the OTL New York - New Jersey area?
 

Japhy

Banned
WI the Dutch never settles the Hudson estuary (and so no New Netherlands exists)? Would the Pilgrims extend their domain further to the south or a more Mid-Atlantic colony would appear in the OTL New York - New Jersey area?

I'd probably go towards New England. Several of the colonies that formed along the Connecticut Coast IOTL claimed parts or all of Long Island, with multiple settlements being formed there, well away from the Dutch area of control. It wouldn't be that surprising to see the Hudson River develop as an inter-colonial boundary and New York Harbor's natural advantages being used as a site of settlement.

Now if we're talking about The Pilgrims, yes there's a chance they'd establish Plymouth on the Hudson. Though the beer crisis they were having on Cape Cod certainly wasn't too helpful for getting to either Manhattan or Virginia.
 

Flubber

Banned
WI the Dutch never settles the Hudson estuary (and so no New Netherlands exists)?

Some other colonial power will. The harbor, large islands, and access to the interior the Hudson river provides are just too advantageous. Other than the Dutch, you're looking at the English or, much less plausibly, the Swedes.

Would the Pilgrims extend their domain further to the south...
Unless you improve Jones', Coppin's, and Clarke's navigation skills, improve the supply situation, or moderate the weather during the months after landfall, the Pilgrims are still going to sight Cape Cod, spend several weeks putzing around while looting burial mounds, only to settle at Plymouth. The problem here is if somehow the navigation were better, supplies more available (perhaps Speedwell not being sabotaged), or the weather better the Pilgrims will sail to Jamestown after making landfall at Cape Cod. Jamestown was their actual destination. If they can reach the Hudson from the Cape, they can reach Jamestown.

...or a more Mid-Atlantic colony would appear in the OTL New York - New Jersey area?
If, for some reason, no one has settled the mouth of the Hudson by ~1630, parts of the Winthrop Fleet may settle there. Given the location, it's certain that Manhattan/Staten Island will be settled during the 1620-1640 Great Migration.

Again, if the Dutch are out of the picture, only the English are "doing" settler colonies at this time and in the area in question. France, while setting up trade entrepots, isn't allowing tens of thousands to migrate, Spain is doing little besides patrolling and then very rarely north of Hatteras, Portugal is entirely absent, and Sweden's tiny effort will be easily gobbled up.
 
Some other colonial power will. The harbor, large islands, and access to the interior the Hudson river provides are just too advantageous. Other than the Dutch, you're looking at the English or, much less plausibly, the Swedes.

Unless you improve Jones', Coppin's, and Clarke's navigation skills, improve the supply situation, or moderate the weather during the months after landfall, the Pilgrims are still going to sight Cape Cod, spend several weeks putzing around while looting burial mounds, only to settle at Plymouth. The problem here is if somehow the navigation were better, supplies more available (perhaps Speedwell not being sabotaged), or the weather better the Pilgrims will sail to Jamestown after making landfall at Cape Cod. Jamestown was their actual destination. If they can reach the Hudson from the Cape, they can reach Jamestown.

If, for some reason, no one has settled the mouth of the Hudson by ~1630, parts of the Winthrop Fleet may settle there. Given the location, it's certain that Manhattan/Staten Island will be settled during the 1620-1640 Great Migration.

Again, if the Dutch are out of the picture, only the English are "doing" settler colonies at this time and in the area in question. France, while setting up trade entrepots, isn't allowing tens of thousands to migrate, Spain is doing little besides patrolling and then very rarely north of Hatteras, Portugal is entirely absent, and Sweden's tiny effort will be easily gobbled up.

If the English are the firsts to arrive and stay in the Hudson - let's say something similar to your idea of Manhattan settlement during 1620 - 1640 what would be the most likely political and economic evolution of the "New York" colony? More like the New England, more like the Southern colonies or something totally different from both?
 

Japhy

Banned
First, I would suggest what develops would be wholly unrecognizable from New York. At least one Bank of the Hudson and possibly all of Long Island are going to be in other colonies. And what remains probably is going to have very different borders in regards to the South. New York City as a Puritan Settlement dramatically shifts the balance of settlement in New England after all.

Now, that said the Dutch did have some success growing Tobacco in modern Westchester, Kings, Queens, and Nassau Counties. If the Puritans get involved in the same thing, and it is a success, there's a chance we see Slavery come to New England as a practical force, rather than as a Post-Puritan anomaly. You can imagine how drastic the changes might become then.
 

Flubber

Banned
If the English are the firsts to arrive and stay in the Hudson - let's say something similar to your idea of Manhattan settlement during 1620 - 1640 what would be the most likely political and economic evolution of the "New York" colony? More like the New England, more like the Southern colonies or something totally different from both?


More like New England than the South or Caribbean.

The Great Migration was primarily composed of Puritans who mostly settled the Massachusetts Bay colony north of Plymouth. Most of those who weren't Puritans went to Barbados which was a proprietary colony settled for plantation sugar production.

There was a bit of a self-selection mechanism involved. Those worried about religious "freedom" - meaning they were free to harass anyone not of their faith - went north while those interested in making a fast buck in the sugar trade went south.
 

katchen

Banned
There's always the possibility that if the Hudson Valley is vacant, Lord Calvert could find it an attractive place for his Catholic colony. Baltimore on the Hudson. In which case this TL could be looking at a Maryland the size of Virginia or larger and possibly early mass Irish Catholic immigration to the New World---as well as tobacco plantation agriculture in Long Island, what is IOTL New Jersey and Westchester and Rockland and Orange Counties and attendant slavery.
Also, the butterfly that causes the Hudson River not to be settled by the Dutch could be Henry Hudson not being set adrift by his crew, but his ship being iced in for one winter on the eastern shore of Hudson's Bay, trading with the Cree and coming back to the Netherlands with a ship loaded with pelts the way the Hudson's Bay Company would, 60 years later IOTL. It would make for a very interesting TL indeed if the Dutch put their main North American effort into trading around Hudson's Bay and west into what would be IOTL the Nelson-Saskatchewan and Churchill Basins. Higher profits, no fur wars with the French and perhaps eventually a Northwest Passage by river to the Pacific Coast.
 
There's always the possibility that if the Hudson Valley is vacant, Lord Calvert could find it an attractive place for his Catholic colony. Baltimore on the Hudson. In which case this TL could be looking at a Maryland the size of Virginia or larger and possibly early mass Irish Catholic immigration to the New World---as well as tobacco plantation agriculture in Long Island, what is IOTL New Jersey and Westchester and Rockland and Orange Counties and attendant slavery.
Also, the butterfly that causes the Hudson River not to be settled by the Dutch could be Henry Hudson not being set adrift by his crew, but his ship being iced in for one winter on the eastern shore of Hudson's Bay, trading with the Cree and coming back to the Netherlands with a ship loaded with pelts the way the Hudson's Bay Company would, 60 years later IOTL. It would make for a very interesting TL indeed if the Dutch put their main North American effort into trading around Hudson's Bay and west into what would be IOTL the Nelson-Saskatchewan and Churchill Basins. Higher profits, no fur wars with the French and perhaps eventually a Northwest Passage by river to the Pacific Coast.

Very interesting...full slavery so far to the north would completely alter the balance of power in the Independence process...maybe two nations would be formed: New England and "South of the Hudson until Georgia"...
 

Japhy

Banned
Very interesting...full slavery so far to the north would completely alter the balance of power in the Independence process...maybe two nations would be formed: New England and "South of the Hudson until Georgia"...

Slavery lasted in New York and New Jersey for years without the "Southernization" of the Mid-Atlantic.
 
On a related note, I want to make one day a thread where France is in those areas - New Netherlands and the 13 COlonies, not England (who may have taken what is now Canada-Quebec).

Reversing patterns, kinda. WOuld be interesting how it would have turned with France at helm there. Since the climate is better and closer to France's to a point... easier settling for sure.
 
If the Swedes got it and managed to maintain their colonies, that could be real different scenario for North America. Wonder how that would influence everything, even if they eventually get taken over by another European kingdom (well as long as it went down like Quebec instead of how the Dutch were largely assimilated).
 
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