New world has more diseases then the old world in 1492

trajen777

Banned
As a an aside to MALONE'S thread i wanted to ask an interesting side that i have not seen or thought thru before.

Lets say the New World in 1492 was advanced in certain ways as the old world. This would include :
1. Domestication of new world animals and these animals are in close proximity to the owners as in the old world.
2. Cities have been around longer so population overcrowding is common, creating a great filthily environment for disease (equal to European cities)
3.Trade routes are well established (they were very solid in the New World)
4. Wheel widely used and some small ships so some trade between the islands from Central American and North America

Utilizing the books, Guns Germs & Steel, The lost city of the Monkey God, and The silk road each have the same basic story of disease spread, civilizations wiped out, and desolation of government. Now the key ingredient in the native population decimation in the New World was the waves of disease that were spread (Plague, influenza, small poz, chicken pox, Typhoid, etc etc ), with each wave wiping out a group that survived the preceding outbreak.

Ok now Columbus arrives in the islands, DR, Cuba, and others. He finds some semi advanced ports or towns and (in Columbus own log he expresses surprise on how healthy the crew was on the first voyage) does some trade. Disease spreads in the ships and he makes it back to Spain with some infection spread. However on subsequent voyages the Spanish are always decimated by disease and perhaps bring significant new disease back to Europe. Here you have the reverse of the New World kill off (the disease would be different or at least different species). It would still impact and devastate the new world however perhaps the waves are much slower plus no invasion by the Spanish armies.
 
As a an aside to MALONE'S thread i wanted to ask an interesting side that i have not seen or thought thru before.

Disease spreads in the ships and he makes it back to Spain with some infection spread. However on subsequent voyages the Spanish are always decimated by disease and perhaps bring significant new disease back to Europe. Here you have the reverse of the New World kill off (the disease would be different or at least different species). It would still impact and devastate the new world however perhaps the waves are much slower plus no invasion by the Spanish armies.

I mean, Europeans did come across diseases they didn't have in Africa and SEA, and we the Antonine Plague seems to have been thoroughly apocalyptic too long before the Black Death...what kinds of diseases are you envisioning, anyway? Is the Old World separated from the Americas by a butterfly screen/net and develops as normal, or does the ASB simply remove domesticable animals from the Eurasian package?

A really good one would be something like a medieval Spanish Flu, which kills what would normally be stronger humans (so typically younger adults, and men, first); that would obviously invite aggression from neighbours potentially leading to serious societal changes that would keep everyone busy for a long time. But diseases like that aren't as common.
 
Considering smallpox was the biggest killer of new world populations, you have to somehow inoculate American native populations against it. For that, geographical/ASB changes are required, plain and simple.
 

trajen777

Banned
I mean, Europeans did come across diseases they didn't have in Africa and SEA, and we the Antonine Plague seems to have been thoroughly apocalyptic too long before the Black Death...what kinds of diseases are you envisioning, anyway? Is the Old World separated from the Americas by a butterfly screen/net and develops as normal, or does the ASB simply remove domesticable animals from the Eurasian package?

A really good one would be something like a medieval Spanish Flu, which kills what would normally be stronger humans (so typically younger adults, and men, first); that would obviously invite aggression from neighbours potentially leading to serious societal changes that would keep everyone busy for a long time. But diseases like that aren't as common.
I'm thinking Europe develops normally but, you have a new world much more advanced with many more domesticated animals ( think llamas more wide spread, Polynesians (some evidence exists the visited) have them intro pigs and chickens).

Anyway under separate conditions you would have mutation of pigs and chickens etc that would transfer to people over time. So when the Europeans arrive they are exposed to plagues they have no immunity for
 

trajen777

Banned
So to better state my tl. I am saying the new world develops it's own virus from interaction from its own contact with domesticated animals. The old world brings it's diseases to the new world but their are new diseases that hit the old world from the new world. The diseases both ways cause devastation
 

BlondieBC

Banned
So to better state my tl. I am saying the new world develops it's own virus from interaction from its own contact with domesticated animals. The old world brings it's diseases to the new world but their are new diseases that hit the old world from the new world. The diseases both ways cause devastation

I would go with the Inca's then. From llama. Call it camel pox.

Also, Measles relative in cows is Rinderpest which can impacts many ungulates. It wipe out a species of antelope in the last 150 years in Africa. So, if Camel Pox ancestoral disease can wipe out some European animals, even better. So say the Llamapest wipes out goats and sheep in the old world. Navies of the world moving goats around as food on ships is how it spreads.
 
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