"New Tories"

The British lefties of the site are often decrying "New Labour" and how far right it is ("Tories in all but name"), even going to the right of the Liberal Democrats.

What sort of POD would be required to have Conservative Britons bemoaning the fact that the "New Tories" had gone to the left of the Liberal Democrats, and could be described as "Labour in all but name"?

1. Is this possible with a late 80's-early 90's POD?

2. If not, how late could you make a POD that would end with these results at the present-day?
 
I don't see that happening. For a long time, the "One Nationals" (all Tory PMs before Thatcher), broadly centrist and unwilling to privatize, liberalize trade or curb union power (in the 1970s), controlled the party. Even if Heath wins in '75, eventually the right of the party will reassert control.
 
How about much earlier than the '80s?

The likes of Harold McMillan and Duff Cooper responded to the Depression and War eras by urging their party to reinvent itself quite radically, with Cooper believing the Tories should rename themselves the 'New Democrat Party' IIRC. Churchill wanted the Liberals to merge with his Conservatives in the fifties ("What Churchill did over there was a version of the New Deal," as Barry Goldwater told Gore Vidal in a famous interview).

Have such a party come up against a sixties Labour Party that fully embraces the ideas of Hugh Gaitskell's post-socialist revisionism, as well as policies like 'In Place of Strife'.

The anger that the party's Right directed at Ted Heath during the Thatcher years would be advanced by decades, and would be more widespread.

(Anyway, there is a serious Rightwing backlash coming against Cameron IMHO, as his ideological project rejects what many party faithful consider to be the great successes of the Thatcher years. Not many Labourites want to go back to the Wilson government, even the Old Labour people who loathed Blair. But that's for Chat.)
 

maverick

Banned
I don't see that happening. For a long time, the "One Nationals" (all Tory PMs before Thatcher), broadly centrist and unwilling to privatize, liberalize trade or curb union power (in the 1970s), controlled the party. Even if Heath wins in '75, eventually the right of the party will reassert control.

What POD do you thing can produce insular Red Tories in the Canadian Style, if New Tories are less plausible?
 
You have to have Heath and Wilson not manage to FUBAR on the economy and appease the unions, but curbstomp them instead. Wilson would be difficult because Lab was so close to the unions- the unions form part of the Labour electoral college to this day. Such actions require a Blue Tory: no one else could do that. Rene Levesque, a social democrat heading a PQ government, implemented Thatcherite right-to-work legislation against the teachers' unions in 1977. That alone gives an idea of how spineless both were against the unions.

Re "Red Toryism": different political climate. In Canada, there were no nationwide trade union abuses of power, and no well-known Crown corporations (government-owned industries) other than Air Canada, CP and the CBC. Mulroney privatized the first two without much controversy in 1988.
 
Last edited:
You have to have Heath and Wilson not manage to FUBAR on the economy and appease the unions, but curbstomp them instead. Wilson would be difficult because Lab was so close to the unions- the unions form part of the Labour electoral college to this day. Such actions require a Blue Tory: no one else could do that. Rene Levesque, a social democrat heading a PQ government, implemented Thatcherite right-to-work legislation against the teachers' unions in 1977. That alone gives an idea of how spineless both were against the unions.

Re "Red Toryism": different political climate. In Canada, there were no nationwide trade union abuses of power, and no well-known Crown corporations (government-owned industries) other than Air Canada, CP and the CBC. Mulroney privatized the first two without much controversy in 1988.

What has this got to do with the OP?

'What sort of POD would be required to have Conservative Britons bemoaning the fact that the "New Tories" had gone to the left of the Liberal Democrats, and could be described as "Labour in all but name"?'
 
You have to have Heath and Wilson not manage to FUBAR on the economy and appease the unions, but curbstomp them instead. Wilson would be difficult because Lab was so close to the unions- the unions form part of the Labour electoral college to this day. Such actions require a Blue Tory: no one else could do that. Rene Levesque, a social democrat heading a PQ government, implemented Thatcherite right-to-work legislation against the teachers' unions in 1977. That alone gives an idea of how spineless both were against the unions.

Re "Red Toryism": different political climate. In Canada, there were no nationwide trade union abuses of power, and no well-known Crown corporations (government-owned industries) other than Air Canada, CP and the CBC. Mulroney privatized the first two without much controversy in 1988.

Shouldn't that be CN not CP? IIRC, CP was always private.

(unless you're not talking about railroads)
 
TiL is correct. :eek: If you want "New Tories" you need Heath and Wilson to govern competently, reduce trade union abuses and keep the economy on an even keel. Only in the 1970s did public support for both parties' broad centrism end when it appeared as though one needed the unions' consent to govern Britain. Eventually, the right wing of the party will launch leadership challenges, and if they fail repeatedly, may split. The rump Tories might merge with the Liberals to form a new party (dare I say Progressive Conservative?), and the right-wingers take a new name.
 
If you want "New Tories" you need Heath and Wilson to govern competently, reduce trade union abuses and keep the economy on an even keel. Only in the 1970s did public support for both parties' broad centrism end when it appeared as though one needed the unions' consent to govern Britain.

What does this have to do with the OP?

Why would 'New Tories' be anything other than a rebranded nineteen seventies Heathism?
 
He's asking how they could go to the left of the Lib Dems. I'd say Hugh Gaitskell, the proto-Blair, lives longer and scraps Clause IV in theory in addition to practice among other things.
 
OTL, with a minor twist, a lot of Tory activists feel that Cameron as gone too far from the core Conservative message, that's why UKIP did so well in the Euro Elections and will probably do surprisingly well in the General Election. Remember Cameron has a very small base in the Parliamentary party and his attempts to expand it by parachuting in candidates is going down very badly with the party, the only thing keeping the show on the road is the lure of power, after the general election the first time he caves in on Europe or the Budget you'll have Redwood and Hannan attacking him ever louder and more clearly.
Thus the only change from OTL you need is for him to say "New Tories" at some point.
 
Top