New TL: Help Wanted (esp. with PODs)

Short form (AKA: Seven words for you): Gavin Menzies is not a credible historian.

Long form:

Zheng He can presumably make such a voyage, though not easily (it is a very long trip). But it is well beyond any reasonable distance China can project force on a regular basis, and without being able to do that you have some Chinese introduced butterflies and viruses at most. Not Chinese rule of Europe.

Even rule in the sense of overshadowing Europe.

Now, for China to be so much more powerful and dominant that the kings of Europe are irrelevant on the world stage for some time is easy. That's what happened OTL, no reason for it not to happen here. But that's considerably less than China "dominating" the kingdoms of Europe or being a "world empire" in this period (up to and including the equivalent of the 19th century, specifically meaning steamships and the telegraph).

Considering the Mongols conquered China as well as Eastern Europe you do have a potential analogy there, but this was several hundred years later and required a mass army across the whole of Asia - something one does not see traditional China doing

That only leaves 2 options - one of which is naval power, which seems one hell of a push unless someone builds the Suez Canal early (didn't the Romans try?), the other of which is mercantile power, trading colonies and associated armed merchantmen which might JUST work in being an extension of Chinese power and influence, but still seems to fall short of the idea of getting the European kingdoms to acknowledge Chinese suzerainty - except where doing so might be in the short term political interest of a passing ruler

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Considering the Mongols conquered China as well as Eastern Europe you do have a potential analogy there, but this was several hundred years later and required a mass army across the whole of Asia - something one does not see traditional China doing

Mongol conquest of "Eastern Europe" doesn't extend further than Russia though. And even there, the part actually influencing Russia isn't really influenced as much by events thousands of miles away in terms of culture or other developments.

That only leaves 2 options - one of which is naval power, which seems one hell of a push unless someone builds the Suez Canal early (didn't the Romans try?), the other of which is mercantile power, trading colonies and associated armed merchantmen which might JUST work in being an extension of Chinese power and influence, but still seems to fall short of the idea of getting the European kingdoms to acknowledge Chinese suzerainty - except where doing so might be in the short term political interest of a passing ruler

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Why am I afraid that Don Lardo is going to say something on this (either the canal efforts or the Search Engine or both)?
 
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That only leaves 2 options - one of which is naval power, which seems one hell of a push unless someone builds the Suez Canal early (didn't the Romans try?), the other of which is mercantile power, trading colonies and associated armed merchantmen which might JUST work in being an extension of Chinese power and influence, but still seems to fall short of the idea of getting the European kingdoms to acknowledge Chinese suzerainty - except where doing so might be in the short term political interest of a passing ruler

The Genocide appears to indicate that there was a Nile-Red Sea Canal in ancient times, can't see why one couldn't be built later. As for a Suez canal, I'm not so sure - isn't the area really rocky, to the extent that modern explosives were needed?

Anyway, I really can't see the Romans adknowledging Chinese suzerainty - relations between them were (mostly) indirect, the Chinese, from my limited knowledge, seem to have regarded the Romans as a sort of counter-China. Anyways, the Romans would likely be too proud.
 
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The Genocide appears to indicate that there was a Nile-Red Sea Canal in ancient times, can't see why one couldn't be built later. As for a Suez canal, I'm not so sure - isn't the area really rocky, to the extent that modern explosives were needed?

Okay, to beat Don Lardo to it:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=3999382&postcount=26

Among other posts of his in this thread https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=178725

And a Nile-Red Sea canal of the sort built OTL won't do a lick of good for purposes of shortening the sailing distance between Europe and China.

Nor, really, is there any reason for China to bother with Europe. What does Europe - counting Rome, much less any fragments - have that China wants? Precious little.
 
Well, it kind of worked the other way round OK didn't it? The Romans used the overland route from the Med to the Red Sea and had trading fleets out there across the Indian Ocean with some sort of mercantile colonies in parts of India I remember reading

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
So, I have an idea for an EPIC timeline going approximately from the late (post-split) Roman Empire to the present day, but there are some things nagging at me. For one, I need PODs.

I want these specific results:


  1. A Western Roman Empire enduring, clinging to central Italia and becoming the core of a loose confederation of states in Western and South Europe similar to the OTL HRE
  2. Germanic culture in OTL northern and central France
  3. Crimean Goths' culture and language surviving, as well as more East Germanic states
  4. A Zoroastrian/Persian sphere stretching from the Levant to the Indus Valley
The rest of what I want I can achieve via butterflies, but I need PODs for these four things. Can anybody knowledgeable in the late Roman Empire and early Dark Ages help?

Oh, and I need a catchy name as well.

Not read through all the other points, so others have probably suggested this, but the best POD I can think of is one involving a succesful reconquest of Vandal Africa in 468, restoring the West's richest province. From there, you can get a centralised core WRE back up and running, consisting of Italy, Illyria, and North Africa. You'd get your feudal, HRE-esque stuff from independent "marcher lords", both Roman and Germanic, who owe vague loyalty to the Emperor, in Spain, southern Gaul, and Pannonia. Perhaps have the Visigothic kingdom break up into small, warring states, which owe some sort of theoretical loyalty to the Emperors in Ravenna, but to no-one else.

The Franks settle northern Gaul as OTL, and are able to fend off Western Roman attempts at conquest, eventually converting to Chalcedonian Orthodoxy to attempt to bring themselves into the Roman cultural sphere, and get left alone. Say, have the WRE go through a period of trouble in the first half of the sixth century, a civil war or something. By time it recovers, the Frankish state is strong and independent enough to be left to its own devices by the Romans, who stop entertaining thoughts of reconquest.

Crimean Goths is very easy, they existed for centuries as East Roman vassals anyway, so I see no reason why they can't continue to do so here. Perhaps have them given more in the way of subsidies by Constantinople, so they can fend off the Bulgars, Avars and co, and then break out into the Ukraine to form a Romanised, Christian kingdom.

Sassanid Levant is doable, but as a Byzantino-phile, I obviously don't want to give out tips on how to do it. An important thing to remember is that a major breakout as occured IOTL after 605 is unlikely, because the ERE's resources haven't been diminished by Justinian's programmes and Tiberius II's fiscal diahorrea. In addition to this, I'm unsure about Zoroastrianism triumphing over Christianity in an already well established Christian area- by the time of the Arab conquests, Mesopotamia was majority Christian, and Zoroastrianism was in decline there. You may see the Sassanids converting to Nestorianism in the end, I think...

Hope this helps!

BG
 
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