New Timeline: HSF Sorties to assist the German 1918 Spring Offensive

[rast]

If Beatty has learned anything from Jutland at all (which is rather dubious), he will be cautious not to send his BCs into the grinder alone. After all, this will not be an 'easy' BC/BC battle.

However, the Brits never had qualms about other people doing the heavy lifting for them. So, one could imagine Beatty sending a signal to the Yanks to intercept the HSF at top speed. (And one could imagine the Yanks to be creazy enough to do it.)

The resulting engagement ought to slow down the HSF sufficiently for the GF to catch up - or at least sink all the crippled stragglers - even if the HSF pigheadedly presses on in direction east.

 

[Eternity]

Thanks for the replies all.

Well, working the math, the 5 US BBs can make the Schelling Roads before the HSF and block their way - as can all the RN BC's sailing from Rosyth. The 5 QE Class BBs can reach the Schilling Roads at the same time as the HSF.

I am thinking that the US BBs & the RN BCs form up and sail West toward the HSF to block it's path and the QE's get there ASAP to reinforce them (15" guns after all!) Warspite took a Fritz X during WW2 and survived so they were good ships!

That is 21 BB & BCs (If none drop out) vs the 24 of the HSF. HSF only have 2 x 15" ships (Bayern & Baden). The rest are 12". I may play it that way and have the GF arrive 3 hours later to mop up any stragglers, save the crews and try and save US & RN ships.

Does that sound feasable? Or would Admiral Scheer seeing the ships blocking his way sail straight through them - have a running sea battle - accepting damage and losses to make port before the GF arrived?

I really need the HSF emilinated as a fighting entity to play this TL out as I want - and I need the Furious, Glorious and Corageous operational at the end of it! lol

Tall order as they are the easiest to sink. 3" Armour on all 3 of them!!!

 

[rast]

Scheer knew exactly what to expect. The Germans had done the math in 1914 already.
He would have the HSF run straight through the Yanks. No manoeuvering for better positions, just keep going!

Calibre isn't all. The German 28 cm guns were equivalent to the British 30.5, and so on.
If the Americans try crossing the T, they'll face an torpedo attack by all light craft - without regard to losses. Followed by a hell ride of the HSF.
Will be an impressive inferno.
Especially because the HSF ships are rather hard to sink, even if battered to pieces.

 

[Eternity]

Especially because the HSF ships are rather hard to sink, even if battered to pieces.

Germans always did over-engineer things didn't they? Ships, tanks, guns..... But they could always soak up punishment.

 

[rast]

Speed, firepower and protection, the old game.

For Tirpitz protection had absolute priority, fire power and speed only scored second and third.
(If you face a vastly superior navy and still believe in the decisive sea battle, this is perhaps understandable.)

 

[Eternity]

THIS POST EDITED!!!​

March 21st & 22nd 1918
18:00 till 08:30

Admiral Scheer had received a report from the Admiralstab in the signals earlier saying that the attack was going better than expected, that General Hindenburg had launched the Lys Offensive early and that Nieuport had already been surrounded because the British and Belgian armies were retreating in disarray. Total surprise had apparently been achieved! He therefore thought it best that his crews know their sacrifices and lost companions that day had not been in vain so he sent the signal on to every ship in the fleet and told the Captains to inform their crews that they had done their duty magnificently, and that their duty now was to return home alive and as heroes so that they could fight the Royal Navy another day.

Admiral Scheer knew that the Grand fleet sailing at it's maximum speed in the current conditions of 18 knots could not catch up with him until 2:30pm the next day and that by then, he would be back safe in port behind his minefields. He also knew that if the Battle Cruisers of the GF intercepted him, he could defeat them easily. Admiral Scheer therefore gave orders that his crews could relax until 5:30am, and were to return to their stations at 6am as at maximum speed the Battle Cruisers of the GF could intercept him by 6:30am. Admiral Scheer was not particularly worried about this as, at that time he would be almost home and it was known among the crews of the HSF that British Battle cruisers had little armour, and were therefore easy gunnery targets. The only advantage that they had was speed and a larger calibre of gun, but this may not be an advantage if his ships got within range.

Admiral Scheer signalled Admiral Hipper telling him of his expectation of a possible attack by the Battle Cruiser Squadrons of the GF sometime after 6:30am and that his crews should rest before hand. With that Admiral Scheer retired early and ordered to be woken at 4:30am, before the battle that may come before dawn.

What Admiral Scheer did not know, and what would have changed his plans was that the 6th Battle Squadron of the Grand Fleet was at sea at the time of the Channel Assault. This squadron was made up of 5 United States Battleships, and it was just off the Norwegian Coast escorting a convoy. On hearing of the attack, the Royal Naval Admiralty had ordered the squadron due south to rendezvous with the GF Battle Cruisers off the Schilling Roads and to then steam West to intercept and delay the HSF so that the GF could catch and destroy it.
He also did not know that at their maximum speed of 24 knots (22 Knots in current conditions), the 5 Queen Elizabeth Class Battleships of the GF had been dispatched by Admiral Beatty to meet the USN and BC Squadrons as soon as possible and that they could reach the Schilling Roads at 10:30am - shortly before the HSF.

19 Battleships and Battle Cruisers of the HSF were soon to be facing down the guns of 21 USN and RN Battleships and Battle Cruisers and neither Admiral Scheer nor anybody at the Admiralstab was any the wiser.

During the night while he slept, reports arrived for Admiral Scheer. Some were routine, some were from the submarines that were stationed along the most probable lines of approach of the GF saying that ships had swept past so fast that they had not been able to get into firing position to attack and some were reports stating that they had attacked and either damaged or sunk ships of the GF.

When he awoke there were no reports from the submarines that the Admiralstab had ordered into the English Channel under radio silence. They had been ordered to enter through the channel that the HSF had swept the day before and not to break radio silence until they were due to return to base, or unless an absolute emergency arose. Their orders were to proceed towards the Western end of the English Channel and disrupt allied supply shipping in that area. Mines were also to be laid at either end of the Solent and outside Cherbourg and Le Havre in an attempt to force the allies to stop using all channel ports, thus making them take much longer supply routes to give the German Army an edge on the Western Front.

The reports from the submarines in the North Sea told him that 14 destroyers had been sunk or damaged enough to turn back, along with 3 cruisers and the Battle Cruisers HMS Courageous and HMS Glorious. This meant that there would only be 9 Battle Cruisers that could intercept him though Admiral Scheer. That was good as with his 19 Capital ships, he could easily wipe them out.

At 6:00am while he was reading that report, the alarms went off in the SMS Baden indicating that it was time for the crews to go to their action stations in case they were intercepted by the GF Battle Cruisers during the night. 6:30am - The earliest possible time of attack came and went with no sighting of the enemy and so Admiral Scheer went to the bridge to await either the Schilling Roads or the Royal Navy. Whichever came first.

Shortly after 8:30am, a lookout on the bridge of the lead destroyer of the HSF cursed and muttered to himself before wiping the lenses of his binoculars and returning them to his eyes. He slowly swept the sea ahead of the ship before freezing and concentrating on a point on the horizon directly infront of the ship. After a few seconds, without lowering his binoculars he yelled 'Smoke dead ahead!' All binoculars on the bridge swung round and others confirmed the presence of a patch of smoke on the horizon dead ahead. The Captain hit the alarm button and yelled for the radio operator to signal Admiral Scheer that there was a large quantity of smoke on the horizon some 20 miles dead ahead!

At the same time on the lead British destroyer, another rating was doing exactly the same thing. The captain of the destroyer immediatly made the signal 'Enemy in sight. Moving to intercept' to the lead Battle Cruiser, HMS Tiger. She in turn made a signal to the fleet 'Enemy in sight. Proceed as planned.' and with that British destroyers moved to converge ahead of the HMS Tiger and the pre-arranged plan of the Royal Navy to slow down the HSF swung into operation.

-------------------------------------------------------------

The Courageous and Glorious took one torpedo each. Disabled enough to turn back. It was the only way to save them as they are critical to the plan that will be made to end WWI in this TL. Also with 3" armour, a torpedo will do much more damage to them than to another BC which has more armour.

Re: The times. All altered. It is after dawn now so both fleets sight each other much earlier. The HSF is still 50 NM from the Schilling Roads, or to put it another way, at 5am they are passing the Islands of Borkum and Juist.

 

[HMS Warspite]

I suggest the USN 6th Battlesquadron is a liability in the Grand Fleet, as it is inexperienced and untrained, while also lacking the speed of the battlefleet of the British at that time. In 1918, the USN had almost no combatexperience of modern naval warfare, as their last real naval comflict was already twenty years baclk, while the Roytal Navy had four years experience in the Great War.

The British on the other hand were much more agressive in Naval Warfare, even if fighting against the odds. Their superior experience at sea would be a great asset in the fight, even when facing technical failures in their ships. (such as instable cordite still in use)

Technically the German Fleet and its ships outwithed the Allies, as they had superior firecontroll and rangefinders in this period of history. While not carrying the same weight of broadside, the German capital ships were much more strongly constructed and armored, which could be decisive in some cases, especially in a nightfight, where the Germans seemed to have been specialized in. Simmilarly, German torpedotactics were much mroe advanced than those of the Allies in this period of history.

 

[HMS Warspite]

I suggest the USN 6th Battlesquadron is a liability in the Grand Fleet, as it is inexperienced and untrained, while also lacking the speed of the battlefleet of the British at that time. In 1918, the USN had almost no combatexperience of modern naval warfare, as their last real naval comflict was already twenty years baclk, while the Roytal Navy had four years experience in the Great War.

The British on the other hand were much more agressive in Naval Warfare, even if fighting against the odds. Their superior experience at sea would be a great asset in the fight, even when facing technical failures in their ships. (such as instable cordite still in use)

Technically the German Fleet and its ships outwithed the Allies, as they had superior firecontroll and rangefinders in this period of history. While not carrying the same weight of broadside, the German capital ships were much more strongly constructed and armored, which could be decisive in some cases, especially in a nightfight, where the Germans seemed to have been specialized in. Simmilarly, German torpedotactics were much more advanced than those of the Allies in this period of history.

 

[HMS Warspite]

Sorry for the double posting.

 

[Eternity]

I suggest the USN 6th Battlesquadron is a liability in the Grand Fleet, as it is inexperienced and untrained, while also lacking the speed of the battlefleet of the British at that time.

While I do agree that the 6th Battle Squadron was relativly untrained and inexperienced, if the RN needs to slow down the Germans they will call in every source possible. Refering to the Bismarck chase after HMS Hood was sunk, the RN was prepared to leave a troop convoy already at sea without BB cover in order to intercept the Bismarck, so I believe they would have taken the risk of putting in the US Ships. The US ships were historically sent on convoy duty for those very reasons!

Also, the US sent coal burning ships (Due to potential UK oil shortages). These ships could sail at 21 Knots which was the speed limit of the majority of the GF BBs, so the US ships could stand in the battle line if required.

The lack of US experience means that damage control and accuracy will be less efficent than their UK counterparts - They recieve more damage and score less hits. A less effective squadron, yes, but one that can still potentially slow down the HSF - and it does have RN BCs alongside.

especially in a nightfight, where the Germans seemed to have been specialized in

Yep! I am trying to work out the time of Dawn in late March 1918. I am guessing around 6:30am in that area. As rast did point out, Admiral Scheer would now abandon his damaged ships, go to flank and engage in a running sea battle to try to get most of his ships home. This gives the Germans the inital advantage as the engagement starts at night, but as it goes on the Allies get the advantage as it gets lighter. Most of the HSF will probably make it home but heavily damaged and effectivley out of duty until they can be repaired

 

[HMS Warspite]

Something else came into mind, namely the enormeous number of torpedocraft in the Hochsee Flotte. Germany had lots and lots of these nimble and fast craft, all capable of operating in the North Sea, as it was considered the most likely battlefront at sea. The original scenario only had included relatively few of these craft and units, so most likely there would have been more.

Normally in this late period of the Great War, the most likely compossition of the Hochsee Flotte, would be composed of fewer large capital ships, most likely ommiting the oldest and slowest Dreadnoughts and especially the Pre-Dreadnoughts, in favour of more flottilla's of torpedoboats lead by a few fleetcruisers (normally light cruisers, supporting the little torpedocraft, especially against British Destroyers.) These vast numbers of trorpedovessesl in the later war Hochsee Flotte could deliver a serious punch against a slow moving battleline, which only in theory could sail at 21 knots. (Coalburners rarely even reached this speed, due to their labour intensive powerplants.) Especially the USN first generation Dreadnoughts were disappointing in this, being fitted with unreliable engines and often much slower than designed. So the 6th BS would still be a burden, rather than an asset, given the generally faster British designs. (British Dreadnoughts normally exeded the designed 21 knots in theory, and could still do quite well, being equipped with more reliable turbines, while the 20 knot designs of the first ten USN Dreadnoughts, rarely got more than 18 knots out of their vessels, due to their temperamentfull engines.

I suggest to let teh USN squadron be included in the slower Pre Dreadnought groups in the south, rather than having it in the Grand Fleet. Perhaps even joining up with the equally slower French Dreadnoughts, when these would be present as well. The 5th BS of the five Queen Elisabeth class Dreadnoughts should also be sailing on their own, or with the Battlecruisers, being much faster and better equipped to deal with the German battlecruisers, who were in most cases superior to the British battlecruisers. The pressence of the Queen Elisabeth Class, with the battlecruisers could be very impacting.

 

[xt828]

IIRC the reason that the US BB squadron was assigned convoy duty was that their gunnery scores on arrival at the British Fleet was absolutely appalling, and the British wanted them somewhere where they'd be unlikely to encounter action.

 

[Eternity]

IIRC the reason that the US BB squadron was assigned convoy duty was that their gunnery scores on arrival at the British Fleet was absolutely appalling, and the British wanted them somewhere where they'd be unlikely to encounter action.

Very true, however as I said, if the RN wanted to slow down the HSF then they would have used every available resource at their disposal. They also trained hard to prove they were as good as the RN! National pride I guess. By the end of June 1918 they were almost as good as the GF - certainly within acceptable standards. In March - halfway between their first shoot & then, they were probably (On a scale of 1-10 - 1, them on arrival & 10, their June scores) a 5 or 6.

The original scenario only had included relatively few of these craft and units, so most likely there would have been more.

You call 150 realitvley few? That is how many the HSF went to sea with they have 135 by now I guess.

Perhaps even joining up with the equally slower French Dreadnoughts?

Weren't the French ships mainly in the Med? I thought there was a UK/France agreement that the UK deals with the Germans/North Sea and the French deal with the Turks/Med? If the French were in the med then no way would they be involved! lol

 

[MUC]

It's going to be a massacre on both sides.

I don't think the British can win this, neither can the Germans. It's probably gonna be a tie.
The Germans will have some ships severely damaged, which will however make it to port, since they are close to home. The British/Americans are gonna lose some ships, which will hit the bottom.

 

[rast]

HMS Warspite has already pointed to the small craft of the Germans. These will be employed with the gloves off. Without any regard to losses. Scheer will sacrifice them for the better of his big ships. - After all, this was the rationale for having them.
The small craft were not tied to the big ships, they operated in their own formations. And they had been raised on aggressiveness. They will not dodge the order to go in and kill - and be killed.

 

[Winand_von_Rabenmund]

HMS Warspite has already pointed to the small craft of the Germans. These will be employed with the gloves off. Without any regard to losses. Scheer will sacrifice them for the better of his big ships. - After all, this was the rationale for having them.
The small craft were not tied to the big ships, they operated in their own formations. And they had been raised on aggressiveness. They will not dodge the order to go in and kill - and be killed.

And with more than 100 going for the 19 british capital ships, this is really going to be a massacre - for the GF!
This is, if the GF ships don't have an equal amount of smaller vessels with them. Do they?

 

[Eternity]

No idea yet. I am still researching the US and GF BC escorts. I would have thought that they would have had DDs with them though. It would just be a question of now many if that were the case.

If they had escorts, then the USN ships would have had to leave their escorts with the convoy they were escorting. No sense in leaving it TOTALLY defenceless!

 

[Paul MacQ]

Night action and the confusion it can Bring, I remember the Royal Navy was worried about better night Training of the HSF.

Just a Flotilla of Torpedo boats in the right place and the right time (Maybe a as Battle is joined and British and US ships Silhouetted by the Battle Lines being Joined ) could see a disaster for the GF and US Navy.

Then again the same could happen to the Germans with a British light force scouting in the right place.

Night action and the confusion it can bring means luck and Torpedoes will come into play big time.

 

[Winand_von_Rabenmund]

Another thing: The US and British ships are east of the HSF, right? So they won't just have to face the (supposably) better night fighting abilities of the Germans, but once sunrise is getting close, they will be very visible while the HSF is still under cover of darkness. (nautical twilight should begin between 04:00 and 05:00, depending on exact location)

 

[Timmy811]

I would think that Allies would certainly lose more capital ships in this next engagement than the Germans, perhaps many more depending on how many escorts the Allies have. However has been noted, even a rather crushing victory in favor of the HSF will not turn the tide at this point in time. The Entente will still have enough ships left and the HSF will have lost enough that the Germans won't be able to follow up on their success.