New Timeline: HSF Sorties to assist the German 1918 Spring Offensive

Germany is dying on the vine in 1918. The last thing the army is going to do is to throw their dwindling forces into a minor campaign to seize a port on the Channel. If they don't score a decisive victory over France before the US deploys on a large scale it is all over.


In 1918 the RN is stronger vis a vis the Kriegsmarine AND has the US fleet to back it up so the likelihood of any useful victories at sea is pretty much nil. Likewise the chances of a small portion of the KM somehow managing to seriously damage the mine fields protecting the Channel and before the RN, coastal artillery, aircraft, etc can intervene.
 
Germany is dying on the vine in 1918. The last thing the army is going to do is to throw their dwindling forces into a minor campaign to seize a port on the Channel. If they don't score a decisive victory over France before the US deploys on a large scale it is all over.


In 1918 the RN is stronger vis a vis the Kriegsmarine AND has the US fleet to back it up so the likelihood of any useful victories at sea is pretty much nil. Likewise the chances of a small portion of the KM somehow managing to seriously damage the mine fields protecting the Channel and before the RN, coastal artillery, aircraft, etc can intervene.

So? As Eternity said in the beginning:
Anyway, Germany is NOT going to win in this TL. That's for sure. Annoy the RN? Yes. Annoy the French & Dutch? Definatly. Perhaps better terms at Versallies or force a stalemate.
 

John Farson

Banned
So? As Eternity said in the beginning:
Anyway, Germany is NOT going to win in this TL. That's for sure. Annoy the RN? Yes. Annoy the French & Dutch? Definatly. Perhaps better terms at Versallies or force a stalemate.

Or perhaps the Germans only succeed in royally pissing off the Entente to such an extent that they decide to move in and occupy Germany, thereby strangling any idiotic "dolchstosslegende" in its cradle. Especially if the German people see the demoralized remnants of the vaunted Reichsheer crumble and disintegrate before the Allied onslaught.
 
The Dutch? Germany's starting to break down and NOW is the time to launch an unprovoked invasion of another neutral nation?:confused:
 
German morale - at the front and at home - had been bad in late 1917. - In early 1918 - with the hope of a decisive victory - it was quite good and optimistic again. - It would go down again in June/July, when it became clear that the March offensive and all later attempts had produced and would produce no decisive victory.

Therefore, March 1918 is a very realistic timeframe for any German naval operation in conjunction with the 'Michael' offensive.

The aim of the Germans (Ludendorff) was not to beat the French army, the aim was to beat the British army. They considered the British as operationally inflexible and of low quality in field commanders, thus easier to round up. The French were considered equal to the Germans in flexibility and aggressiveness, thus representing a more difficult target.
 
The Dutch? Germany's starting to break down and NOW is the time to launch an unprovoked invasion of another neutral nation?:confused:

That would be my bad Grimm Reaper. Sorry. The Belgians. :eek:

Found this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Western_front_1918_german.jpg

Germany was going for the rest of Belgium by taking Calais and surrounding it. Given that the British were guarding the direct path to Calais then that would have knocked them out too (In theory!)

Had both the Belgians and British been knocked out of the war, then the French and Germans would have been in a direct slogging match, and would have probably had to settle for a truce as a German victory in knocking out Britian and Belgium would have massivley increased German moral and decreased French moral. If the US saw the war going bad, then they would not really want to get involved too much as they were still very isolationest at this time.

Note: I would consider this a German victory ITTL so not happening.

In 1918 the RN is stronger vis a vis the Kriegsmarine AND has the US fleet to back it up so the likelihood of any useful victories at sea is pretty much nil. Likewise the chances of a small portion of the KM somehow managing to seriously damage the mine fields protecting the Channel and before the RN, coastal artillery, aircraft, etc can intervene.
Yes, the RN is stronger I agree. They only had 7 ships in the US fleet to back them up though as only coal burners were sent to the UK (UK had lots of coal, but little oil)

The HSF Breached the Dover-Calais barrier in Febuary 1918 as pointed out by rast. They could do it again then - especially with BC in support as only DDs and a few CAs guarded it.

I am not too worried about aircraft in 1918. They could only carry light bombs which were not designed to damage ships and as has been proved in WW2 it takes LOTS with big (500kg) bombs to significantly damage a major warship that has damage control and is manouvering at sea. IMHO in 1918 aircraft were effictive naval scouts but not much good for attacking. No aerial torpedos had been developed and only light bombs existed.

As the attack occurs at night, IMHO Coastal Artillery would not be able to effectivly target ships in the channel - and if allied ships were involved in a sea battle I doubt they would open fire as they would not want to hit their own ships!
 
ok. Update. Two posts for two portions. Sorry it took so long - I only just found a listing of RN flag officers 1914-1918 so I could add in names!

Comments and observations welcomed as always. Before anybody goes off about the British ass-wipe I would point out that with superiour numbers on the German side, it would turn out no other way. I have tried to make losses realistic on both sides. The Germans lost less ships as if you have more to begin with, you can hit your enemy harder and therefore suffer less damage.

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March 21st 1918
[SIZE=-1]10:00 till 13:00[/SIZE]


The HMS Dreadnought, seeing smoke ahead of her, assumed that the German destroyers and torpedo boats had broken through the Dover-Calais Mine Barrier, and were now conducting a sweep for merchant ships. Merchant ships were easy targets for destroyers, but then destroyers were easy targets for battleships! His spotting top informed him that there were indeed approaching destroyers, and that they had turned and were fleeing from him. How wise thought Vice Admiral Dudley de Chair, Commander 3rd Battle Squadron aboard HMS Dreadnought. Little do they know however that there are Light Cruisers behind them. We'll get them for sure.

Just after 10:00, as he was contemplating the destruction of the light German forces, his train of thought was suddenly interrupted by the spotting top telling him that there were 5 large warships heading towards him at high speed! It took him a few seconds but he then realized that he was being confronted by a portion of the High Seas Fleet, and it meant business. He demanded clarification of the type of ships he was now facing, and a few minutes later the spotting top identified the lead ship as a Derfflinger Class Battle-Cruiser, approaching in excess of 25 knots.

As the other large ships were keeping pace with the lead ship, Vice Admiral Dudley de Chair knew that he was faced with the German Battle-Cruiser Squadron of the High Seas Fleet and immediately ordered that a priority signal be sent to the Admiralty and all other ships in range, and be made in the clear so that merchant ships would be aware of the presence of the raiding force. The signal sent at 10:10 hours read:

To British Admiralty from Commander Channel Fleet.
Am engaged by High Seas Fleet Battle-Cruiser Squadron. 5 Large ships and numerous destroyers inside Dover-Calais Mine Barrier. Request all available assistance. My position..... Am turning to engage.


The signal sent serious shockwaves through the Admiralty. The German High Seas Fleet had sortied if force and the Grand Fleet was still in harbor, completely unaware! Orders were issued thick and fast. The Grand Fleet was to put to sea at once and steam South at maximum speed to intercept. All destroyers and cruisers available in the Southern ports were to put to sea to intercept and slow down the German Squadron. Aircraft were requested to scout over the English Channel to engage the German ships and report on their positions and types. All merchant ships were to retire at maximum speed to the West to both get them out of harms way, and to attempt to draw the Germans too far into the English Channel so that they were trapped by the Grand Fleet when it arrived.

Admiral Beatty, Commander in Chief of the Grand Fleet, was furious when he received the signal sent by HMS Dreadnought about the Germans in the English Channel. He had been aware that there were light German forces, but not heavy ones! This was his chance to destroy a portion of the German High Seas Fleet if only he was at sea already. He stormed onto the bridge of the HMS Queen Elizabeth, Flagship of the Grand Fleet at Scapa Flow and ordered all ships available to put to sea and to head South at maximum speed to engage the German Forces. The 1st Battle-Cruiser Squadron was to head South independently and engage the HSF and draw it North into the arms of the GF, as at Jutland.

While all of these signals flew back and forth over England, HMS Dreadnought and HMS Dominion accelerated to maximum speed and turned to engage the German Battle-Cruisers, knowing that outnumbered 5 to 2 and that they would probably loose, but that they may be able to slow down the German ships to allow the GF to intercept and destroy them.

While the British destroyers attempted to get into position to launch their torpedoes at the German Battle-Cruisers, and the German Destroters and torpedo boats attempted to block and sink them, the large ships closed their range and at 10:25 the SMS Hindenburg opened fire on the HMS Dreadnought at extreme range. She was closely followed by the SMS Derfflinger and then, a few minutes later the HMS Dreadnought opened fire on the lead German ship, the SMS Hindenburg. No ships scored hits initially, and all ships were trading vollies by 10:32, when a salvo from the SMS Derfflinger found her mark and hit the HMS Dreadnought but did no damage. A few minutes later, a salvo from the HMS Dreadnought found its mark on the SMS Hindenburg, but that hit also did no damage other than smash some cranes amidships.

By this time, the German ships had split and were engaging their respective targets, and the British ships were doing their best to engage the multiple German ships. It was a one-sided fight however, and soon the overwhelming firepower of the German ships began to tell. The first serious hit was to the HMS Dreadnought and disabled her starboard wing turret, and several hits in that area followed. The result was a major fire in the starboard magazine which was flooded to avoid explosion. A hit was also scored on the bridge of the Dreadnought which killed all the personnel stationed there except for her captain who miracusally survived unscathed. At this time, Dreadnoughts other four turrets were still firing and were scoring hits on the SMS Hindenburg and SMS Seydlitz. The Seydlitz was not seriously damaged by these hits as they hit forward and aft - the crew quarters which were empty at the time. The damage was more cosmetic than anything else. The hits scored to the Hindenburg were more serious however. At 11:08 a lucky hit was scored on the forward super firing turret just as a shell was being loaded. The result was an explosion that disabled the turret and temporally blinded and deafened the bridge crew, including Admiral Hipper. Fortunally cordite handling procedures meant that the flash did not travel to the forward magazines, and after a few minutes - when the gun crew had regained their senses - the lower forward turret started firing again, although initally slower and less accurate than it had been firing.

With three ships against her, HMS Dreadnought was hit again and again as the range closed, and soon her engines were hit and her speed was reduced to 17 knots, and gradually reduced further as more damage took its toll until she was making only 8 knots. This reduction in speed did not stop her guns firing though, and more hits were scored on the SMS Hindenburg and SMS Seydlitz, although none of them serious enough to make either ship withdraw from combat. Gradually her turrets were silenced until only her port wing turret was still firing. One of the final salvos that turret fired before it was destroyed hit the only German ship on that side of her - the SMS Derfflinger - up until this point unscathed. This hit was serious though. Fired at close range, as a target of opportunity passed the turret the two 12" shells slammed into the SMS Derfflinger amidships and almost immediately afterwards a huge column of steam and smoke erupted from the shell holes and the funnels, and she slowed to a halt. With her drifting in front of the single remaining turret of HMS Dreadnought, the Germans must have thought that they were in for a rough time until they got under way again, but with a broadside ready she fired. At equal range to the Dreadnoughts hit, eight 12" shells slammed into the port side of the HMS Dreadnought. Nobody knew how many shells hit the area of the port wing turret, but a massive explosion suddenly occured as one or more shell penetrated the turret magazine and detonated it. The time was 11:41 a little over an hour and a quarter since the battle started.

With all of her turrets now silenced, and with a mortal wound, Admiral Hipper - by now having regained his senses - instructed his Battle-Cruisers and torpedo boats to stop firing on the sinking HMS Dreadnought and to engage the approching British Light Cruisers while destroyers covered the disabled SMS Derfflinger as the HMS Dominion had stopped firing some time earlier and was now slowly sinking.

With a slower speed, less armor and less firepower than the HMS Dreadnought, HMS Dominion was soon in serious trouble against the two German Battle-Cruisers SMS Moltke and Von der Tann. Although her main turrets were still operational and firing, by the time HMS Dreadnought suffered her bridge hit at 10:51 all of the HMS Dominions secondary armament of four single 9.2" guns were disabled and, over time, the German ships scored hit after hit upon her, until eventually her engines succumbed to shock damage and broken steam pipes and she slowed to as stop and started to drift at the mercy of the German guns. At 11:33, with her drifting slowly and listing heavily to starboard, decks almost awash, it was clear to everybody that the HMS Dominion was going to sink soon, and so her Captain reluctantly gave the order to abandon ship. Although she did not strike her flag, the Germans could see that she was sinking and that the crew was abandoning ship so they ceased firing on her and by the order of Admiral Hipper turned to engage the Light Cruisers that had appeared behind them and were now well within range of their main guns.

While the big ships were trading shells, the British destroyers valiantly tried to sink or disable the German destroyers and torpedo boats. Like the earlier battle however, there were many more German vessels than British - 23 German destroyers and torpedo boats to 8 British destroyers - and slowly the British destroyers succumbed to overwhelming fire. The German ships had been ordered not to engage HMS Dreadnought and Dominion with torpedoes, as Admiral Hipper was aware of the approaching British Light Cruisers (Warned by the Admiralstab earlier). Once the British destroyers had been sunk, the German destroyers and torpedo boats had turned to locate the approaching British Light Cruisers. In the meantime, Admiral Hipper knew that he may not be able to bombard the Allied ports with his Battle-Cruisers, and had ordered the Mine-Laying Squadron to bombard the harbors that they were assigned to mine so that his capitol ships could be freed up to repulse the British naval forces.

While the sea battle had raged in the English Channel, aircraft of the Royal Flying Corps had flown overhead. They had initally been unable to attack the German ships as the first aircraft to arrive had not carried any bombs with them, but had been sent to scout the German positions. They dutifully had reported the destruction of the Channel Fleet, and the presence of a number of German Light Cruisers heading for the Channel ports, but shielded by the German Battle-Cruisers. The British, knowing that to get to the German Cruisers they had to go through the German Battle-Cruisers formed up, and pressed their attack against the German Channel Squadron at maximum speed.

Already in range of the German 11", 11.2" and 12" guns at 11:41 when the Dreadnoughts turret exploded and she fell silent, the British Light Cruisers and destroyers valiantly pressed home their attack, knowing that if they could disable the German ships, then the Grand Fleet could destroy them. The Germans, aware of the oncoming assault however, were not caught off guard as the British had hoped, and by the time the light guns of the British cruisers were able to score hits on the German Battle-Cruisers, 3 of the British cruisers were severely mauled and out of formation. The other 5 started to fire on their targets, but at the range they were forced to open fire, their shells were like pinpricks to the armored giants that they were fighting. Their only hope was to get in close enough to launch torpedoes. There was one problem however - the German destroyers and torpedo boats were closing fast with the same idea in mind.

At 12:03 with both sides closing fast, the German destroyers and torpedo boats turned and launched their torpedoes at the oncoming British ships. The British, knowing that they had to close the range if they were to do any damage to the German Battle-Cruisers attempted to comb the tracks of the German torpedoes rather than turn aside. Two of the British cruisers and four destroyers were hit. The cruisers slowed but still came on, firing as fast as they could, but the destroyers that were hit - being much lighter craft - slowed to a crawl or stopped completly and were easy targets for the German guns.

All in all, the British cruiser charge was a disaster. Well before they came within torpedo range all of the British cruisers were sunk, although they never struck their flags or stopped firing until the rising water forced the crews to abandon their posts. The destroyers faired little better. A handful got within range to launch their torpedoes after a running battle with the German destroyers and torpedo boats, but all of the torpedoes launched either missed or failed to cause any damage to the German Battle-Cruisers that would slow them down.

By 12:30 it was all over, and all of the British forces were sunk. In exchange for HMS Dreadnought, HMS Dominion, 8 Light Cruisers and 38 destroyers (Including the 5 sunk at the Dover-Calais Mine Barrier) the Germans had lost 3 destroyers and 8 torpedo boats (Including the 3 sunk at the Dover-Calais Mine Barrier). More serious for the Germans however, was the damaged SMS Derfflinger. Although frantic action had got her underway again, she was seriously damaged and her captain reported that she could only make 14 knots without dockyard repairs, and that steaming at that speed was risking further damage to the ship. Admiral Hipper, knowing this was a serious problem, radioed Admiral Scheer to apprise him of the situation and to tell him that he was abandoning the Battle-Cruiser bombardment, transferring non-essential personnel from the SMS Derfflinger to the other Battle-Cruisers, and turning for the rendezvous point, and he requested orders regarding the SMS Derfflinger. Should he scuttle her or try and save her? In a second signal while he was waiting for a reply, he ordered the Mine-Laying Cruisers to complete their bombardment and lay their minefields, and then to rejoin the Battle-Cruisers as planned.

While the naval battle had been raging in the English Channel, several formations of bombers from the Royal Flying Corps had arrived on the scene and been witness the naval massacre. They had attempted to bomb the German ships during the battle, and afterwards but had had little luck as their light bombs had not penetrated German armor belts when they had hit. They had concentrated on the SMS Derfflinger while she was drifting and scored several hits. Once she got underway they had turned their attention to any ship that presented itself as an easy target, but had scored no further hits against the maneuvering ships.
Several aircraft were equipped with radio, and were in communication with their commanders reporting on the Germans. After the naval battle had finished, somebody had the idea of using the aircraft to report the fall of shot for Coastal Artillery guns and the 12" and 13.5" guns started to fire on the retiring German ships, guided by the aircraft overhead. Due to signals having to be passed on through squadron commanders, the falls of shot reports too long to get to the coastal guns to be effective and so no hits were scored on the German ships before the had steamed out of range of the guns.
 
March 21st 1918
[SIZE=-1]13:00 till 18:00[/SIZE]

With British aircraft watching, the German cruisers shelled the harbors of Dover, Folkstone, Boulogne, Calais and Dunkirk causing some damage to all the harbors. Several ships were caught in the harbors loading or unloading cargo and a few were caught by the cruisers heading for the harbors to seek refuge away from the German Battle-Cruisers. All of these ships were sunk by gunfire, and harbor facilities were damaged to some extent in all ports. From the allied point of view, the most annoying thing was the sunken ships now blocking the harbors, but they would be able to get floating cranes into the harbors to remove these ships. As the Germans only targeted the harbors, the workers retreated outside them, and so there was not a major loss of life in any of the bombarded harbors. Fires were left to burn until the bombardment stopped as fire crews waited outside the harbor entrances.

The British aircraft watched the shelling, unable to do much about it. They did attempt a few strafing runs, but the bullets fired had no effect against the armor of the German ships. Some did try to strafe the mines on the sterns of the German ships, but frantic maneuvering and small arms fire by the German ships meant that these attacks failed to detonate any mines. The British aircraft eventually gave up their attacks on the German ships, and just reported on their actions. When the Germans began to lay minefields at 13:00, they took as best note as they were able as to the locations of the laid fields. When the British Admiralty received these reports, they immediately ordered a stop in all sailings in the mined areas, and as the Germans predicted, all allied merchant shipping was transferred to the un-effected harbors at the Western end of the English Channel.

This action by the British would have the result of slowing down the supply lines by about 2 days in real terms to begin with. This then reduced to 1 day when the details were sorted out. The main delays were initially due to civilian traffic on the roads and railways in the Western end of the English Channel in France, an area where war supplies had not been shipped in quantity before. When schedules were worked out, and civilian traffic re-routed, the delay reduced and only the additional travel distance of the supplies caused delays in their arrival at the front line.

After the German cruisers laid their mines, they retired at speed and caught up with the retiring Battle-Cruisers, destroyers and torpedo boats on the Eastern side of the Dover-Calais mine barrier, steaming at 14 knots for their rendezvous location with the remainder of the HSF. The SMS Derfflinger was setting the speed of the retiring Squadrons, as Admiral Scheer had decided that they would try and save the ship. The Grand Fleet had left Scapa Flow, and was many miles to the North, and with Zeppelin scouts reporting their location, there was no risk of them intercepting them for the moment. The Battle-Cruiser Squadron of the Grand Fleet under the command of Rear-Admiral Henry Oliver (HMS Repulse) was closer, having sailed from Scapa Flow before the Grand Fleet a few hours earlier, but they were still at least 10 hours away at maximum speed.

With Admiral Hipper reporting that he was being shadowed by aircraft, Admiral Scheer's major concern was whether he should retire before rendezvousing with Admiral Hipper, so that the GF was not aware of his presence, and in essence have the Battle-Cruisers shadow him over the horizon so that the aircraft did not see him. In the end he decided to sail for home at 8 knots initially, and have the Battle-Cruisers slowly overhaul him, in the hope that the aircraft will have gone home by the time the two groups met. This would allow him to have all the ships together when the British Battle-Cruiser Squadron was calculated to intercept, and they would hopefully be unaware of the presence of his battleships when they did meet him, allowing him to destroy the Battle-Cruiser Squadron of the Grand Fleet.

Admiral Hipper, having ordered the SMS Derfflinger to make maximum possible speed, and not worry about receiving further damage (Although to report it if it was serious) was now managing to make 15 knots, but the explosion caused by the shell hits had caused underwater hull damage under the engine rooms, and this was slowly getting worse. The un-damaged engine room was starting to slowly flood - although the pumps were easily coping at the moment, and the damaged engine room was suffering more problems due to the pressure of running the engines well past the safety limits, but so far the crew was managing to keep the engines running. The destroyed engine room was a death trap and nobody was allowed in. As such, they could only tell that the damage was getting worse by the noises being made in that area by the tortured hull. Unless they stopped the ship to allow men into the area safely, they would not know the extent of the damage until they made port again.

This routine proceeded until 16:30 when the two German groups gained visual contact. As aircraft were still shadowing and reporting on the German ships, the GF was now aware of the location of the entire HSF. Admiral Scheer knew that the GF would be foaming at the mouth due to the defeat it had suffered in the English Channel, and would want to destroy him completely in revenge. As the game of secrecy was now up, he turned his ships and formed up with Admiral Hippers squadron and requested a full report. As he was reading it, he received a message from the Admiralstab informing him of the current position of the British Battle-Cruiser Squadron and the Grand Fleet, and the results of the submarine attacks on them. The net result was that he could not expect the Grand Fleet to intercept him until after dawn the following day, and the Battle-Cruiser Squadron would be in a position to intercept at some point during the night. No ships of either the Battle-Cruiser Squadron or the Grand Fleet had been damaged by mines due to sweeping before they sortied, and only one ship had been forced to turn back due to torpedo hits. A destroyer. Several Battle-Cruisers had been hit by torpedoes, but they had either not detonated or had not appeared to impair their sailing abilities and they were still with the squadron. The Grand Fleet was a different story however. While no ships had hit mines leaving port, two cruisers had been torpedoed and had turned back and a handful of destroyers so far had been sunk. One battleship had also been hit by two torpedoes and been forced to retire.

By 18:00, when he had finished reading the reports, Admiral Scheer was aware of the numbers of ships to be involved in any coming battle. He still had over 180 ships at his command, although 12 were damaged. Three Battle-Cruisers were damaged - one seriously, and he would have to decide soon weather to abandon the SMS Derfflinger or attempt to save her. The number of ships he faced was in excess of 200 in two squadrons heading South at flank speed. The Battle-Cruiser Squadron had 4 BCs and 40 destroyers ships and the GF had the remaining ships. He also knew that Admiral Beatty was aware of how many of his ships were at sea, and their current location. He was however hoping to be able to loose the shadowing aircraft during the night, and game some extra time before any coming battle. He als knew that the Grand Fleet had to cross several more newly laid minefields and submarine positions during the night, and he hoped that many more British ships may fall victim to these traps.
 
Like it! - The Germans were very much aware that any HSF sortie into the Dover - Calais area could easily be intercepted by the GF coming out of Rosyth and Scapa Flow.
So, by sticking their heads into the tiger's mouth, they should have some ideas how to get out of it again.
Adapting the speed of the formation to the ailing SMS Derfflinger is not acceptable under these circumstances.
Like SMS Lützow at Jutland, SMS Derrflinger would have been left behind/alone with some destroyers for escort and a prayer...
 
Adapting the speed of the formation to the ailing SMS Derfflinger is not acceptable under these circumstances.
Like SMS Lützow at Jutland, SMS Derfflinger would have been left behind/alone with some destroyers for escort and a prayer...

Thanks :)

I was a bit worried that those segments may have been a bit Over The Top! I am having Admiral Scheer attempt to save the Derfflinger as at the time that section ends (6pm) night is falling and the GF is still going to be over 400 miles away. Steaming at 21 knots it will take them the better part of 15-18 hours to reach the HSF. The First BC Squadron steaming at 28 knots (HMS Princess Royal was the slowest ship rated at 27.5 Knots, but she could go faster I believe) will reach them within 10 hours, but those few ships would be creamed if they attack so they are not an issue.

At 15 knots, the HSF only have half the distance to go to reach friendly minefields. If you do the math, the HSF should be able to make port well before the GF intercepts - unless something further occurs - hence the desire by Admiral Scheer to try and save the ship. He could destroy the First Battle Cruiser Squadron if it attacks, but if he abandons the Derfflinger he will definatly loose it to the First Battle Cruiser Squadron, so at the current time he will try and save the ship.

Hope that makes sense!
 
It is within Scheer's character to try to save SMS Derfflinger - although it may put in peril his whole fleet. His heart often won over his mind.
Agreed.
 
Although it may put in peril his whole fleet.
How did you guess? lol That is all I have written so far, so any thoughts for the future of this TL - please make them!

I am just writing the night segement but it is going to be pretty boring and short. Shake the aircraft, subs go into Channel and so on.

BTW Does anybody know how fast the SMS Derfflinger could be towed by another BB? Just had a train of thought that her engines could fail overnight or early morning and she has to be towed - but only if a tow can be made at 15 knots or more. I would imagine a BB or BC could tow another BB or BC at that sort of speed. Anybody know for sure?

Also, the 1st BC Squadron of the GF was historically commanded by Rear Admiral Henry Oliver at this time. Does anybody know what he was like? Reckless, cautious etc? Would it be in his character to attack the HSF or portions of it - like Beatty at Jutland - or would he just shadow them and report to Beatty?

Thanks, David.
 
During the Norway sortie IOTL, SMS Oldenburg took SMS Moltke (engine damage) in tow, and they were able to run 10 knots.
 
Not fast enough really is it? 15 Knots is pushing it, any slower and the Derfflinger would have to be abandoned to her fate - aka scuttled. Pity.
 
At Jutland, SMS Lützow was only scuttled when the enemy came close, until then, they tried to get her home.
Same would happen here. Provided with an escort of three or four destroyers one would leave SMS Derfflinger behind, hoping the lone straggler somehow might slip through. If not, scuttling still could be accomplished.
BTW: SMS Lützow was not only a victim of enemy shells but also of the inexperience of her crew in countering the emergency. One would think that this has been improved fleetwide.
 
Yes, true. However with the hull blown out under one of Derfflinger's engine rooms, there is little her crew can do unless the ship is stopped. In that situation the best any crew can do is seal off the damaged area and run on pumps. The ship would not be stopped until they had no other choice however. Inexperience/stupidity presented her as a target but damage control training is tightened up HSF wide.
 
Unlike SMS Lützow at Jutland, SMS Derfflinger still has all four main turrets to deal out against assailants. So, although slow, she's not helpless.

One would expect the GF to set course for an engagement with an HSF running home at top speed, thus SMS Derfflinger might be kind of left behind (and alone) by both sides - at least at first ...
 
Very true. The GF is running right at the HSF - or for a point infront of it rather, to cross the 'T' as it were.

The HSF has 350 miles to go to make port (From the Dover-Calais Minefield)

The GF has to travel 470 miles to meet the HSF at it's closest point, however the HSF has to travel only 200 miles to make that same point. After they pass the Island of Terschelling off the Netherlands they are in essence sailing away from the GF & the GF has to catch them. From there the HSF only have to sail 140 more miles to make port.

Even with the HSF at 15 knots, the GF can't intercept. The math is against the GF - expecially when the GF can only make 21 knots!

The RN would not want to leave the Revenge Class behind and they were rated at 21 knots. The ONLY classes of GF BBs over 21 knots were the Queen Elizabeth Class BBs (24 knots) and the Iron Duke Class/HMS Canada (22 knots).

No way Beatty would send 5 BBs & all his BCs against the HSF alone as they would be forced to retire or defeated. Rather embarrising given the Channel Fleet being sunk. The RN would want a victory over the HSF to prove their superiority. At 24 knots, the GF can meet the HSF. Any slower and they cannot. I worked it out! lol

To put it another way. From when the GF makes sea, they have 470 NM to sail to get to the coast off the Schelling Roads. At 21 knots, that will take 22 1/2 hours. 24 Knots is 19 1/2 hours.

To reach the same point, the HSF has to sail 290 NM. At 15 knots that will take them 19 1/2 hours.

Without a miracle the HSF will be back behind their minefields before the GF reaches them. Beatty and Scheer can do the math and will know that.

The question therefore becomes is how much is the GF willing to risk? If Scheer keeps his forces together, he can defeat any GF ships that can intercept him. He must know that.


ohhhh Just thought of something. 6th Battle Squadron. 5 USA BB's. 21 Knots but only 310 NM from the Schilling Roads. They can make that in 15 hours. 5 USA BB (12" & 14") and destroyers. They were escorting convoys to Norway so slightly closer AND at sea. If they move to intercept and the RN BC's (All of em!) head to join them that adds

Coragous and Glorious (15", no armour!) Repulse & Renown (15", not much armour!) Lion & Princess Royal (13.5", again armour issues) Tiger (Same as Lion's) Austrailia, New Zealand, Inflexible & Indomitable (All 12", armour again).

With the BC's based at Rosyth they only had 400 NM to go to the Schilling Roads. As such they could join the 5 USA BB's. Still, 11 BC + 5 BC (+ Later 5 QE's) vs All HSF. I suspect US & BC's would loose. BCs were all under armoured and susceptable to damage as such. Especially against 24 HSF BBs & BC's.

The question does really become, how does the GF make 3 hours? Is the risk of loosing the 5 QE Class ALONG with all their BC's worth taking to slow down the HSF? Those ships are the ONLY large ones that can intercept the HSF, but they are outnumbered and if they are lost then the HSF has a much better chance of winning a full on fleet battle in the future.

As I said, Beatty would not want to loose the ships unless he was positive of the destruction of the HSF being the outcome as he would loose his 5 most modern ships, all his BC's and the 6th Battle Squadron - and some of his numerical superiority.

I don't think Beatty would risk it over 3 hours. What do you all think? Is the risk of 21 BB & BC's worth it against delaying the HSF 3 hours right outside their own minefields? Mind you, if the USA/BC/QE's made the Schilling roads first, they are between Scheer and port.....

Ideas please! Help me! lol
 
First of all, I don't think that Beatty would risk all his BC's and a sizeable portion of battleships for such a task.
And secondly: The fastest ships of the GF would only arrive prior to the HSF, if the had absolutely no troubles on their way... but I remember someone talking about more minefields and submarines in their way;)

But to get a major fight going, there could be some accident with a major german ship (runaway mine, british sub, stupid destroyer captain getting in the way...) that requires some maneuvering of the whole fleet, slowing down the race for safety, and then the GF catches up just as the leading ships of the HSF arrive at the minefields...

But I'm no expert on naval part of WWI, so hopefully someone has better ideas :D

Great read so far btw!
 
First let me say that I have thoroughly enjoyed this tread and I am very impressed with the research done by its author. Although I have read Dreadnaught and Castles of Steel by Massie, I am hardly an expert on the subject of the war at sea in WW I and I am enjoying the speculation of those much more knowledgeable then I am.
I have also just read To Rule the Waves by Hermann and I was struck by the very aggressive attitude shown by the Royal Navy from the 16th Century to the Falklands War. The Admirals of the RN often took incredible risks based on an aggressiveness that seemed to be part of thier DNA and a confidence in the superiority of their ships and men that often was sheer arrogance. Amazingly enough, the arrogance was often justified and the results were incredible victories from Aboukir Bay to Taranto to the Falklands.
Having said this, I can not rule out entirely the possibility of Beatty trying to better his personal hero Nelson and sending whatever force he could muster directly at the retreating HSF; whatever the odds. Crazy? Perhaps. I leave to the author of this thread the result of such a battle.
 
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