New Madrid 9.9 Quake 1811

Guys

Quick question. Given the new waterway gives the US access to much of the interior by by-passing what's left of New Orleans. Hence would they be particularly interested in the remains of the port? Or just bypass it and settle further north?

Steve
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Guys

Quick question. Given the new waterway gives the US access to much of the interior by by-passing what's left of New Orleans. Hence would they be particularly interested in the remains of the port? Or just bypass it and settle further north?

Steve

I suspect they'd still want the Eastern Louisiana peninsula because it has a commanding position over the eastern coast of Arkansas Bay.
 
Too late, Mr. Jefferson...

The Royal Navy seizes New Orleans and makes it the Gibraltar of North America. By 1812? I can sense the dismay in Washington. Jamaica's near enough to get frigates there from Kingston before the US government can. Big butterflies here, if Britain can pull it off.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The Royal Navy seizes New Orleans and makes it the Gibraltar of North America. By 1812? I can sense the dismay in Washington. Jamaica's near enough to get frigates there from Kingston before the US government can. Big butterflies here, if Britain can pull it off.

Britain can't pull it off, they have a rather bad history about invasions in the americas without the support of colonial forces (or even with). Plus, their star admiral is dead.
 
According to what I was reading Spain sold Louisiana to France in 1800 and it passed to the U.S. in 1803. The maps of the period which I'm referring to contradict themselves and I wasn't sure what to use. Although I have to change Florida ownership to France also. (Via Treaty of San Ildelfonso)

I see some future conflicts around the Louisiana Bay and access to expanded fertile fishing grounds and ports. What decisions would be made by the British in 1812?

After reading another web site on the subject, since Spain was still administering the territories and the French were owners
in secret for a short while in the OTL I'm not sure what is appropriate. Side note: Maybe the OTL British loss of West Florida could be revised with the recapture of that and the new peninsular Louisiana?

Florida was not a part of the Retrocession under that treaty, it remained Spanish.

Two, if this is 1801, there is no need for the USA to buy anything...the whole point was to obtain \new \orleans and thus control of the port through which the goods of the Western states would be transported... obviously there is no need for that now, plenty of room for port or ports on US soil with direct access to the gulf. the US will not be nterested in buying anything. Without a need for such a port I don't think Jefferson would go ahead with the purchase even if offered by Napoleon. he didn't think it was within his perview to do so remember.
 
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Here's the location of OTL forts and towns close to the expanded waterway.
From north to south St. Louis, Ft. de Chartres, Ft. Jefferson, Ft. Miro, Ft. Nogales, Natchez, and of course New Orleans.
I assume estuaries will form at the north side of the waterway and will include them at a later date. I wasn't sure how many years that will take.

Alt Map F 1801.jpg
 
This is after the Treaty of San Ildefonso [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Treaty_of_San_Ildefonso ]
Napoleon Bonaparte returned Louisiana to French control from Spain in 1800, under the Treaty of San Ildefonso (Louisiana had been a Spanish colony since 1762.) However, the treaty was kept secret, and Louisiana remained under Spanish control until a transfer of power to France on November 30, 1803, just three weeks before the cession to the United States.
Under the terms of the Treaty. France had to do something involving turning Palma and the Dukedom over to Spain, which involved France getting control of Palma first.
But the Treaty had nothing to do with Florida, and just involved the territory West of the Mississippi that France gave Spain in 1762 to prevent Britain getting it in 1763 peace.

However Jefferson has already sent a Delegation in 1801
Jefferson initiated the purchase by sending Livingston to Paris in 1801, after discovering the transfer of Louisiana from Spain to France under the Third Treaty of San Ildefonso. Livingston was authorized to purchase New Orleans.
When the news about the destruction arrives in Europe [New Orleans, Natchez, Memphis, Fort St Louis, etc.] Napoleon may decide to cut his loses and Sell.
Given that France has Not turned Palma over yet, this would be a more tangled legal position.
More likely is that Livingston decides No New Orleans, Nothing to buy, and returns home.


Edit - I wrote this yesterday about time of post 32. but had to leave, and just now finished & posted it.
 
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This is after the Treaty of San Ildefonso [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Treaty_of_San_Ildefonso ]
Under the terms of the Treaty. France had to do something involving turning Palma and the Dukedom over to Spain, which involved France getting control of Palma first.
But the Treaty had nothing to do with Florida, and just involved the territory West of the Mississippi that France gave Spain in 1762 to prevent Britain getting it in 1763 peace.

However Jefferson has already sent a Delegation in 1801

When the news about the destruction arrives in Europe [New Orleans, Natchez, Memphis, Fort St Louis, etc.] Napoleon may decide to cut his loses and Sell.
Given that France has Not turned Palma over yet, this would be a more tangled legal position.
More likely is that Livingston decides No New Orleans, Nothing to buy, and returns home.


Edit - I wrote this yesterday about time of post 32. but had to leave and just posted it.


Check out my post #39 for a timeline. Do you think King Charles IV of Spain would have done that? I revised the map with Florida ownership but have cropped that out for a while.
I like your idea it may make for a slower progress west if people decide to settle on the new waterway.

What if King Charles IV is advised to build a large scale fortress on the tombolo NE of Ft. Miro to inhibit access to and from Arkansas Bay. If the French capture Greater New Orleans and North Louisiana they control the whole area setting up conflict with the British.
 
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Re; Map
West Florida Border, was farther north than East Florida. I think somewhere about the Bottom of the Words Mississippi Territory


1801 9.9 Quake Timeline

Jan 22, 1801 Quake happens leaving water from 10 to 300 feet deep


Feb. 17 Jefferson elected by Congress.

Feb. 20 Quake news reaches Washington D.C.

Mar. 4 Jefferson sworn into office

Mar. 14 News reaches Madrid and Paris soon after wards.

Mar. 17 King Charles IV of Spain delays signing of Treaty of Aranjuez
until more information is received about disaster in Louisiana.

Mar. 22 Jefferson appoint Lewis and Clark to lead an expedition to map
and explore new waterway.

April
Lewis & Clark set out in 6 Ships From Philadelphia, it will take them some 4 weeks to reach New Orleans.

Spanish Ambassador meets with British Admiralty requesting Permission to send Cartography Expeditions to Survey Disaster and Map new Coastline

New Orleans despite hazards from the new Gulf of Louisiana is above sea level and can support area as a major port.
However the remains of the River is Salt Water, and the northern end is to shallow to allow major ships to pass.

Lewis and Clark stop at lake Pontchartrain and meet with American settlers in West Florida.
Hear complaints about Sea Water from the Mississippi starting to infiltrate the Lake.

May 2
Lewis & Clark arrive in New Orleans, Meet 4 British, 2 Spanish and 1 French Ships, on the same kind of Mapping expedition.
It is decided that the Americans will map the east Coast while the Europeans explore the West Coast.
One American Ship joins the Europeans, while one British ship Accompanies the Americans.

July
Americans and British meet at the North end of new Waterway. Cartographers meet and exchange Maps. They decide to sail down each others coast and meet in New Orleans.

August
Lewis returns (Clark dies of ill health) with report of new Arkansas Bay and massive waterfalls/Rapids at river mouths.
Cartographers meet and Decide on names. The Golfe d' Louisiane is joined to the Baie d' Arkansas by the American Straits.

Septembre
Lewis returns to Washington With new Maps
King Charles IV of Spain signs of Treaty of Aranjuez except area around New Orleans is folded into West Florida

March 1802
Jefferson signs bill establishing US Army Corps of Engineers
The history of United States Army Corps of Engineers can be traced back to 16 June 1775, when the Continental Congress organized an army with a chief engineer and two assistants.[10] Colonel Richard Gridley became General George Washington's first chief engineer; however, it was not until 1779 that Congress created a separate Corps of Engineers. One of its first tasks was to build fortifications near Boston at Bunker Hill. The first Corps was mostly composed of French subjects, who had been hired by General Washington from the service of Louis XVI.

The Corps of Engineers as it is known today came into being on 16 March 1802, when President Thomas Jefferson was authorized to "organize and establish a Corps of Engineers ... that the said Corps ... shall be stationed at West Point in the State of New York and shall constitute a Military Academy." The United States Military Academy was under the direction of the Corps of Engineers until 1866. The Corps's authority over river works in the United States began with its fortification of New Orleans after the War of 1812.

1803
US Army Corps of Engineers given task of Building Forts at Mouth of Rivers along New coast, and building Canals/clearing River Mouths to allow Navigation into new Bay/Gulf.

Treaty of Ameins ends British/French War
Napoleon sends force of 3,000 Soldiers and Ships to establish Forts in Golfe Losisiane and Baie Arkansas.

The new Governor of St Louis, is dismayed to discover that 2/3 of the residents are Americans, and that 90% of Missiouri Whites are Americans. The new Governor bans farther American settlement. However with only 300 soldiers he can't enforce the Ban.
However American Papers hail the ban as a second XYZ affair, and French American relations deteriorate rapidly.
Although Spain fortified St. Louis and a few other outposts during the American Revolution and beat back a British-Indian attack on St. Louis in 1780, the Spanish did not attempt to settle Missouri. However, they did allow Americans to migrate freely into the territory. Spanish authorities granted free land to the new settlers, relaxed their restrictions against Protestants, and welcomed slave-holding families from southern states—especially important after 1787, when slavery was banned in the Northwest Territory. Pioneers such as Daniel Boone arrived from Kentucky, and the Chouteau fur-trading family gained a lucrative monopoly among the Osage. Spanish rule ended abruptly in 1800 when Napoleon forced Spain to return Louisiana to France.

1804
Treaty of Armiens has broken down, Napoleonic wars have begone, preventing Napoleon from sending Reinforcements and Settlers to Louisiana.
Several Clashes take place between Kentucky/Tennessee Militia escorting American Settlers in Missouri, and French Troops.
Not wishing to have the same Quasi War that plagued Adams, Jefferson asks Congress for permission to purchase Northern Louisiana.
Jefferson sends Madison, the Secretary of State to France to negotiate.
Despite Jefferson's feelings about the Military, Congress has approved a small increase in the Army, and a larger increase in the Navy/Marines.
Jefferson returns with a Treaty. France sold all land north of the 33rd lat, from the American Straits west to the South Seas [otl Louisiana north Border]
This South Sea Wording would lead to later conflict. Scholars believe it was a deliberate act, done due to Spain having joined the British lead Coalition.

1805
Jefferson sends the Army Corp Engineers on Expeditions to explore the Missouri, Arkansas, and other Rivers on the West side of the Mississippi.
He also sends a Naval Expedition to explore the West Coast,
The Painting of Lewis Leading the Expedition down the Columbia, to meet the Naval Party, on the Beach, is in every schoolbook, and is a enduring symbol of American Manifest Destiny.

1806
New Territory is split into the Louisiana, and Missouri Territories.
US sends Delegation to Madrid with offer to buy Florida.
Upset with the US having Bought Louisiana, King Charles refuses, despite most of his Generals arguing for the Sale.

1807 Spain sends 3000 soldiers to Florida, Quadrupling it's forces there

1809
Americans in West Florida Revolt from Spain and set up The Republic of "The State of Florida". The Republic sends a Delegation to Washington asking for Annexation.
[This is 2 years earlier that OTL. Due to the problems crossing the Golfe & Biae, more Southern Americans, have moved to Florida instead.]
While Madison deliberates over Protecting Americans v Pissing off Spain's ally, Great Britain. The matter is taken out of his Hands.
General Jackson leading a mixed Force of Kentucky/Tennessee Militia had been invited to Georgia to help with Attacks by the Greek Indians.
Hearing of Americans being attacked by Spanish, Jackson leads his Militia troops across the Border, and takes Mobile.
He then heads west to New Orleans and the History Books.

1811
Treaty of Lisbon, ends the Florida Wars.
For the Sum of 8 million Dollars, 6 of which is American assumption of Spanish Debt, the US receives The Florida's, Spanish Louisiana, and Tejas.

1812
The State of West Florida is admitted to the Union. The capital of the State is moved to New Orleans.
 
Great expansion on the timeline! My only suggestion since I didn't post it yesterday is to rename the "American Straits" the "Straits of Ouachita" after the river which is nearby. With the new timeline the next map will be revised to 1812.

Alt Map G 1801.jpg
 
I'm looking forward to the next update (will there be a British-American War? Who won the 1804, 1808 & 1812 presidential elections?) and the next map (how far have the waters receded? What new states have joined the union beside West Florida?).
 
I believe the presidents will stay the same unless they lose a future war to the British. I decided to make a new state or colony of Rouge d' Louisiane to initiate a different timeline. Please provide the proper French if it's incorrect.
I've added estuaries and silt to certain waterway denoted by +.

Alt Map A 1812.jpg
 
One thing failed to be mentioned is the trees and other debris that would be under the waterline for a very long time. If ships need to go through this junk will need to be cleaned.
 
One thing failed to be mentioned is the trees and other debris that would be under the waterline for a very long time. If ships need to go through this junk will need to be cleaned.

I added low areas/debris and a main channel for Baie d'Arkansas. I suppose currents from the rivers would push debris to spots of the bay but with the depth of some areas I'm not sure what would be the worst. The 300 foot depth in areas would keep it clear once the floating debris settles. Color lines contain the contour of New Madrid fault. Depths are added within.
I thought changing the Mississippi to the Arkansas Territory might make sense. The Caddo nation might align with a certain power and not be decimated by disease like OTL before 1812. With population of est. 10,000 maybe they could manage a territory or a later spot where other tribes are relocated.

Alt Map B 1812.jpg
 
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