New Coptic Dynasty of Egypt?

[Philip]

Thank you, that's indeed much more clear.

Glad to help.

So the POD would be a Crusader conquest of Egypt, successful because of Byzantine help, and the conversion of the conquering crusaders to the Miaphysitic doctrine in order to get willingful acceptance from the large Coptic minority in Egypt?

I would suggest that rather than the crusaders converting that they retain their religion but enter into dialogue with the Copts. I think an ATL where the two sides agree that they are saying the same thing with different words is possible.

The crusaders should also not stip the Copts of what power and privilege they already held.

And with Byzantine support again, this school would be accepted as in full communion with the Church of the East?

It would be a step, a big one. There are other issues to resolve. Papal jurisdiction, the filioque, and the nature of atonement are major issues. There are also some canonical issues that need to be resolved, but compromise is easier in those matters. There is also a good deal of bad blood politically, but the euphoria of the success of the crusader could cover much of that.

BTW, I assume here you mean the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox. The Church of the East is Nestorian. Reconciling them is another matter.

No reconciliation with the west cannot happen because orthodox christians wouldn't support papal supremacy

The existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches suggests that this might not be universally true.

all patriarchs are equals« primus inter pare»was the roman patriarch which gave him more of a spiritual power, he was equal with the patriarchs on all other things

The eastern patriarchs afforded Rome primacy in honor. They denied that he differex spiritually from any other bishop.

 

[Bloodmage]

The eastern patriarchs afforded Rome primacy in honor. They denied that he differex spiritually from any other bishop.

i migth have worded that wrongly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primus_inter_pares#Eastern_Orthodox_Church

 

[MiniaAr]

Glad to help.



I would suggest that rather than the crusaders converting that they retain their religion but enter into dialogue with the Copts. I think an ATL where the two sides agree that they are saying the same thing with different words is possible.

The crusaders should also not stip the Copts of what power and privilege they already held.



It would be a step, a big one. There are other issues to resolve. Papal jurisdiction, the filioque, and the nature of atonement are major issues. There are also some canonical issues that need to be resolved, but compromise is easier in those matters. There is also a good deal of bad blood politically, but the euphoria of the success of the crusader could cover much of that.

BTW, I assume here you mean the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox. The Church of the East is Nestorian. Reconciling them is another matter.



The existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches suggests that this might not be universally true.



The eastern patriarchs afforded Rome primacy in honor. They denied that he differex spiritually from any other bishop.

Ah yes, I meant a Eastern Orthodox Church, not the Nestorian Church of the East. And I agree that they're not likely to be reconciled.

I think I read an interesting timeline here, with an (Eastern) Roman victory against the Sassanids and no Islam that resulted in such a reconciliation on the basis of Miaphysitism.

 

[Philip]

I think I read an interesting timeline here, with an (Eastern) Roman victory against the Sassanids and no Islam that resulted in such a reconciliation on the basis of Miaphysitism.

That is not unreasonable, but I am not sure it is the most likely outcome in that scenario. (I also don't think it will stop the growing rift between East and West and could even aggravate it.) If there is a quick Roman victory over the Sassanids, in particular of Syria and Egypt are not occupied for a generation, I think Miaphysitism would have slowly been absorbed back into Dyophysitism. The Dyophysites were increasingly able paint the arguments of the Miaphysites as imprecise and therefore open to bad conclusions. They emphasised how the Monophysites were exploiting these opportunities. There was a trend to allow Miaphysite bishops to remain in office if would not teach against Chalcedon even if they did not accept it.

 

[Ultima Ratio]

I think the idea of Coptic Mongol Egypt was thrown away a bit hastily, but it's such a cool concept that I just can't let it go.

So since the Ilkhanate was already partial to Christianity, we could go from there. Perhaps something like this:

- Mongols destroy the Abbasids as OTL
- POD: Möngke does not die of dysentery/cholera, instead lives for ~10 more years (this might cause other butterflies though)
- Mongols have around 60 000 more men at their disposal to invade the Palestine and Egypt
- Mamluks fight back as OTL, which angers Hulagu greatly, decides to completely subdue them
- Mamluks are properly destroyed in a Palestinian campaign and the Mongols crash down on Egypt with their Christian allies in tow
- With Mamluk rule weakened, a Coptic revolt breaks out in Egypt in the wake of the Mongol arrival
- Copts declare support for the Mongols, mainly because they are fighting the same enemy, and they would like to avoid ending up as severed heads on spikes
- Egypt is completely devastated (see Hungary in 1241-42), main Muslim population centers are put to the sword
- Mongols establish control of Egypt, mostly leaning on their Coptic for maintaining control (Copts become an important social class of administrators)
- Mongols in Egypt begin to convert to Coptic
- Mongol rule eventually solidifies in the region, some later ruler actually taking up Coptic, perhaps even crowned as a king (something like the Timurids, but Coptic)

Not saying it's not ASB, but might be a good starting point, no?

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

I think the idea of Coptic Mongol Egypt was thrown away a bit hastily, but it's such a cool concept that I just can't let it go.

So since the Ilkhanate was already partial to Christianity, we could go from there. Perhaps something like this:

- Mongols destroy the Abbasids as OTL
- POD: Möngke does not die of dysentery/cholera, instead lives for ~10 more years (this might cause other butterflies though)
- Mongols have around 60 000 more men at their disposal to invade the Palestine and Egypt
- Mamluks fight back as OTL, which angers Hulagu greatly, decides to completely subdue them
- Mamluks are properly destroyed in a Palestinian campaign and the Mongols crash down on Egypt with their Christian allies in tow
- With Mamluk rule weakened, a Coptic revolt breaks out in Egypt in the wake of the Mongol arrival
- Copts declare support for the Mongols, mainly because they are fighting the same enemy, and they would like to avoid ending up as severed heads on spikes
- Egypt is completely devastated (see Hungary in 1241-42), main Muslim population centers are put to the sword
- Mongols establish control of Egypt, mostly leaning on their Coptic for maintaining control (Copts become an important social class of administrators)
- Mongols in Egypt begin to convert to Coptic
- Mongol rule eventually solidifies in the region, some later ruler actually taking up Coptic, perhaps even crowned as a king (something like the Timurids, but Coptic)

Not saying it's not ASB, but might be a good starting point, no?

There have been more ASB things in our TL so a Coptic Mongol Egypt is not ASB. But it is very unlikely. There is a certain reason why the Mongols of the Ilkhanate converted to Islam rather than remaining Christian after baptism.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

While I was screwing the Abbasids in my TL I had a new Coptic dynasty.

Spoiler

And then the founder's nephew converted to Sunni Islam

But I think the general idea of: screw the Abbasids out of house and home, then have successful Coptic revolt while Baghdad is preoccupied is the winning formula.

 

[Modern Imperialism]

A stronger and recovery Byzantium on top of a successful crusades could do. The west and East still have its issue but are able to work together enough against Muslims to push them back. A better managed crusade and a stronger Byzantium ally could see eastern Christians see better treatment leading to more joining ranks. They could at least make up middle and administrative classes in more Catholic dominated crusader states.

In Egypt you could have a Catholic kingdom and monarch who just de facto Coptic besides the king and few others especially outside of Alexandria.

The new world discovery being push back a few decades and Iberians deciding to spread more into North Africa after would only secure it. The issue with Christian kingdoms of this time is they did not work well together at all. If Byzantium and crusader states are both strong you don’t see a drop in religious fanaticism within Christendom especially western Catholic Church. With lucky and some level of collaboration they can with Byzantium and other regional Christians secure much of near east especially Anatolia and coastal regions.

Egypt would naturally be the next goal. That is how Christendom can access better trade routes directly again to Far East and India. They are literally and figuratively cutting out out middle man in trade(Muslims). They also cut Muslims world in half. Egypt location and importance to trade is big. This in term in itself might push back discovery of Americas. Conquistadors would have easier time taking northwest Africa while Byzantium takes Libya or it goes to Egypt.

I think the time mongols come around they might be more inclined to adopt Christianity if it has a stronger and larger sphere then otl. They might still sweep through Asia and try to spread all over like otl. By fighting few of these kingdoms even. But crusaders might hold back hordes better. Most of their defenses would be forts and based around fighting while outnumbered or with less Calvary. Europeans heavy armor and pikes are not always a good match for light Calvary and archers especially in close range or sieges. Egypt might have buffers in the way of highly militarized crusader states east of them.