Netherlands Part of Germany

Warsie

Banned
how did the Netherlands help Germany massively? Explain. Also this is alt timeline so we can mess with things :p
 
Relatively speaking. As far as I know, the Netherlands did (slightly) more to help Germany (and by extention, the Central Powers) than to help the Entente. They didn't help all that much, but still.

However, this is just some tidbit I once read, so I could easily be wrong.
 
Relatively speaking. As far as I know, the Netherlands did (slightly) more to help Germany (and by extention, the Central Powers) than to help the Entente. They didn't help all that much, but still.

However, this is just some tidbit I once read, so I could easily be wrong.

That was more, because the Dutch traded with both sides (after all the Netherlands were neutral and have a tradition of being a trading nation); however the Entente Naval superiority resulted in blockade of the Central Powers, so the latter benefited more from the imports they could still get.
 
There are three german dialect groups: Upper German (divided into High Franconian, Alemannic German and Austro-Bavarian dialects), Central German (divided into West Central German (including Luxembourgish) and East Central German dialects), Low German (divided into West Low German (these are all North Low Franconian, South Low Franconian and Low Saxon dialects) and East Low German dialects). The modern High German is based on Upper and Central German.

I find it helpful to think of a triangle of dialect continuums:

Northern: Low Franconian (Dutch) to East Low German
Western: Low Franconian to Upper German
Eastern: East Low German to Upper German

It may be a tad distorted ;) but it helps
 
One POD could be a failed murder on Prince William of Orange ( ''the silent'') in 1584. Perhaps he would lead the success full defend of Antwerp. Parma and his successors losing more rapidly grounds. Amsterdam and Holland never gain so much influence in the North Netherlands. William of Orange and his successors could gain more influence in the new state and could fulfill their dynastic ambitions by conquering/marriage and diplomacy to carve a large German Principality /Kingdom out of the patch work of German States or connect the Netherlands in to a larger (North-) German dominion.

Any other time is less likely. The North Netherlands develop from the 17th century on wards a strong national conscience. German Principalities were economic financial far behind the Dutch republic and were mainly providers of soldiers and low paid laborers for the Dutch in the 17th to the 19th century.
 
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One POD could be a failed murder on Prince William of Orange ( ''the silent'') in 1884. Perhaps he would lead the success full defend of Antwerp. Parma and his successors losing more rapidly grounds. Amsterdam and Holland never gain so much influence in the North Netherlands. William of Orange and his successors could gain more influence in the new state and could fulfill their dynastic ambitions by conquering/marriage and diplomacy to carve a large German Principality /Kingdom out of the patch work of German States or connect the Netherlands in to a larger (North-) German dominion.

Any other time is less likely. The North Netherlands develop from the 17th century on wards a strong national conscience. German Principalities were economic financial far behind the Dutch republic and were mainly providers of soldiers and low paid laborers for the Dutch in the 17th to the 19th century.

I think it could be done at a later date as well, given sufficient Dutch expansion. Say the Dutch control OTL Lower Saxony and the Ruhr area, which would still attract prediminantly German settlers. The effect would be that Germans make up the majority of Dutch population, which should have an effect on the Dutch language as well. As there is a continuum of dialects, the Dutch living at the borders may speak more German than Dutch.

Anyway, the era you proposed for the POD is the easiest for sure. The Netherlands could have a decent expansion, they once held East Frisia and were close to getting Munster. I'd definitely go for the Ruhr area as it would simplify things on the long term. Once the Ruhr is in Dutch hands, they are close to the forrests which provided timber for the ships. Therefore, expansion and increased economic influence is granted over large parts of Hessia and both sides of the Rhine valley.
 
An other possibility would be in the 17th and 18th century with some more powerful Prince of Orange or a republican government who desired a larger buffer around the State(province) Holland. All at the expense of Munster, Ost Friesland, Bentheim and perhaps Cleve and Julich, how ever they were personnel dominions of the Prusians which were regarded a useful neighbor.

An other POD would be the extinsion of the house Orange-Nassau after the dead of King William III ( in the late 19th century, or earlier) who outlived his sons and never could remarry or produce a heir? Most likely a German branch of the house of Nassau could become sovereign of the Netherlands , which in turn would lower the treshhold to enter a custom union with the German Empire and other incorporating treaties.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
I have a book which explores the ideas of a greater Netherlands and a Netherlands which is part of Germany. It's pretty good in the POD and immediately afterwards but without any consideration of the butterfly-effect.

The POD which makes the Netherlands part of Germany is a failure of the assassination of William of Orange by Balthazar Gerards. His survival opens up the way for the House of Orange to be made Counts of Holland and Zeeland. When the House of Orange fails to get a male heir the Prussians become in charge.
 

yannik

Banned
One possibility is Luther translated the Bible into Low German rather than High German, for example Lower Saxony grant Luther refuge.
And because he wants to reach as many people as possible he translated the Bible for all speakers of Northern Germany (Do anyone knows whether mutual intelligibility between Low German and Dutch still existed at this time ?)
 
Have Frederick William I from Prussia conquer Netherlands after he creates a professional army. He ruled Prussia either in the later stages of the thirty years war or directly after that. He would probably be the best choice because he spent a good amount of his youth in Amsterdam. That would set up a very interesting occupation scenario.
 
Have Frederick William I from Prussia conquer Netherlands after he creates a professional army. He ruled Prussia either in the later stages of the thirty years war or directly after that. He would probably be the best choice because he spent a good amount of his youth in Amsterdam. That would set up a very interesting occupation scenario.

You mean “the Great Elector”? Sorry, but that's ASB territory. Even if he had tried it, he never could have succeeded.
 
Early in the Dutch Revolt, there were a couple attempts to offer a crown to various foreign monarchs. Elizabeth I of England and Henry III of France both turned it down around 1585. Were there any German states that would be plausible candidates for a similar deal? Say, Brandenburg, Saxony, or the Palatinate?
 
Maybe a somewhat earlier pod would work?
Let William II of holland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_William_II_of_Holland) survive much longer than 1256, till lets say 1308, and so letting him stay king of the HRE for a much longer time and also let him become effectively the king. Maybe this will start a feeling that the Netherlands is a central part of the HRE.
 
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Maybe a somewhat earlier pod would work?
Let William II of holland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_William_II_of_Holland) survive much longer than 1256, till lets say 1308, and so letting him stay king of the HRE for a much longer time and also let him become effectively the king. Maybe this will start a feeling that the Netherlands is a central part of the HRE.
He was never a 'real' king to begin with, and only chosen as anti-king because he was basically powerless. There's no chance that he could start a dynasty, and a few more years of him pretending to be German king has no influence on the national identity of the Dutch. Sorry.
 
Your right about the anti-king part, but even most of the king of the Romans with full support of this era started out with a modest powerbase. Two of them ended up being quite successful king Rudolf of Habsburg and later king Henry of Luxemburg. Both of them were elected, because they were (mere) counts; but they managed to promote their dynasty to the elite group among the imperial dynasties, because they managed to greatly increase their own powerbase (Hausmacht).

Although they were generally accepted and they also had opportunities, but OTOH they also managed and were capable to seize those.
 
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