What if At the Cogress of Vienna The Netherlands were made a member of the German Confederation? Would They become part of a united Germany?
Edit: Title should say 'German'.
Edit: Title should say 'German'.
Netherlands in the Greman Confederation
- Thread starter Imperator Frank
- Start date
You should realise that at that point the Dutch weren't German anymore. They didn't consider themsevels it and neither did the rest of the world. It still could happen in theory, ut they would have to be forced and they probably wouldn't be a willing part of the German unification, like most other German states.
Yes, which is why I said willingly. But to be conquered they have to part of the Austro-Prussian war (or some variant of it). OTL I don't see that happening as the Dutch really valued their neutrality in those days. Of course being part of the German confederacy changes everything, including Dutch politics. So they could get involved, but it is a very big change from OTL. For example, what would happen with the Belgian revolt? Would the German states help the Dutch (bringing the Dutch more into the German camp, but it would still have a large Walloon minority that most certainly doesn't want to be part of a German state and of course a Flemish/Dutch majority that doesn't)? Would king Willem II still change the constitution so we will have a democratic Netherlands? Is it possible for the Netherlands to keep out of any of the wars? Wouldn't the Netherlands just leave at the earlies possibility?
Also if we return to te POD 1815, how would the Netherlands look? Would it gave the same colonies as OTL or would they get a better deal with German assistance (like English Guyana or maybe even the Cape colony) or would they get a worse deal (no Dutch Guyana, Dutch India annexed, etc.). What border would the Netherlands have? Would it be the exact same borders, or would with German pressure the Dutch gained for example Dunkirk? Would it be easier for the Germans to give parts of what is now Germany to the Dutch, like East Frisia or Prussian Gueldres. And would Luxemburg be an integral part of the Netherlands (most likely, yes)?
the Germans could create A belgian state to act as a buffer to france couldn't they?
They would still want a buffer to protect them from The most powerful country on the Continent.
It might be a very stupid idea, but if the Dutch don't retreat after the Ten days campaign and France invades, Prussia would help the dutch in order to prevent France from becoming to powerfull. This would make the Netherlands (or at least the politicians) very pro-Prussia. The Dutch wouldn't probably the German Empire, but as to strenthen the bond with eachother the Royal Families of Prussia and the Netherlands may marry some of there sons and daughters to eachother leading to a sort personal union.
But if the Dutch are already in the confederation there is a possibility Prussia could force them to join the Reich.
How did the Netherlands Become part of the German Empire in Decades of darkness?
Iirc they were quite extensively intermarried anyway. Indeed the Hohenzollerns had an arguably better claim to the title "Prince of Orange" than did the Dutch branch.
WI the "Dutch" House of Orange dies out sometime between 1795 and 1814, and the King of Prussia gets one of his sons or nephews recognised as PoO? A Hohenzollern Netherlands might join the GC.
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Wouldn't the Dutch go back to being a republic? Also, WI Ducth was viewed as a german dialect instead of a separate language?
First, I have to say that I find this whole thing very unlikely. The Dutch didn't see themselves as German anymore so wouldn't join willingly. On the other side, I doubt that Britain would accept annexation of the Netherlands by anybody.
Nevertheless, this might change if the Dutch have the feeling that they need protection from France. Britain is a possibility - but Prussia is also. I think the easiest way to get the Netherlands in some kind of confederation with many German states is fear of France. Napoleon staying in power could to the trick.
So what about a peace treaty in 1813 which makes the Netherlands and parts of Flandres independent from France, of which Napoleon remains emperor? Let's say that the Russian csar dies from whatever reason, and his successor is not willing to prolongue the war until Napoleon is utterly defeated. Metternich shares the goal of establishing a new balance of power - the Prussians don't, nor do the British. The resulting treaty establishes the Empire of France in the current borders plus Palatinate, Sarre, Wallonia and Luxemburg and bits of Italy. Germany is divided between a staunchly anti-French Northern German confederation, led by Prussia, of which the Dutch become part as protection against Napoleon. Southern Germany comes under the influence of Austria.
Now with time passing by, the Northern German confederation might start additional cooperation - for example in colonial affairs, trade, economic policy - besides defense. That could end in the Netherlands joining in unification.
Another idea is an earlier Napoleonic POD, in which those of his relatives which rule the Netherlands and Westphalia take a "Murat", change sides, Napoleon is defeated and they stay in power. The "legitimate" countries wouldn't be that fond of these "Napoleonids", leading maybe to a confederation of Napoleonic successor states including Westphalia, Berg, Batavia and maybe some more Northern German states. Effectively, thisuses a similar idea as before: a common foreign threat to the Netherlands AND parts of Germany.
Nevertheless, this might change if the Dutch have the feeling that they need protection from France. Britain is a possibility - but Prussia is also. I think the easiest way to get the Netherlands in some kind of confederation with many German states is fear of France. Napoleon staying in power could to the trick.
So what about a peace treaty in 1813 which makes the Netherlands and parts of Flandres independent from France, of which Napoleon remains emperor? Let's say that the Russian csar dies from whatever reason, and his successor is not willing to prolongue the war until Napoleon is utterly defeated. Metternich shares the goal of establishing a new balance of power - the Prussians don't, nor do the British. The resulting treaty establishes the Empire of France in the current borders plus Palatinate, Sarre, Wallonia and Luxemburg and bits of Italy. Germany is divided between a staunchly anti-French Northern German confederation, led by Prussia, of which the Dutch become part as protection against Napoleon. Southern Germany comes under the influence of Austria.
Now with time passing by, the Northern German confederation might start additional cooperation - for example in colonial affairs, trade, economic policy - besides defense. That could end in the Netherlands joining in unification.
Another idea is an earlier Napoleonic POD, in which those of his relatives which rule the Netherlands and Westphalia take a "Murat", change sides, Napoleon is defeated and they stay in power. The "legitimate" countries wouldn't be that fond of these "Napoleonids", leading maybe to a confederation of Napoleonic successor states including Westphalia, Berg, Batavia and maybe some more Northern German states. Effectively, thisuses a similar idea as before: a common foreign threat to the Netherlands AND parts of Germany.
if Holland Was already in the Confederation The British might view it as just another german state.
Conceivably, but in 1814 republics were very much last year's fashion. iirc there was even some discussion of whether Switzerland ought to be given a king or statthalter, so for the Netherlands I would think an alternative Prince of Orange is far more likely. Doesn't have to be a Hohenzollern, but it could be. Even OTL, King William I was half a Hohenzollern on his mother's side, and he, his daughter and his second son all married Hohenzollerns. So the family links were very close.
Susano
Banned
The Hohenzollern Kings were Princes of Orange. since France had occupied the principality already anyways, the younger House of Nassau-Orange (Nassau-Diez) and Hohenzollern agreed to share the noew purely nominal title. Should younger Nassau-Orange die out, the Prussian King could raise a claim to the Stadholdership-General. But even then most likely the NL would just stay in personal union with Prussia, and not be part of it. Hence it would probably also stay out of the GC - after all, Prussia even had parts of it proper that stayed outside of it.
archaeogeek
Banned
The Congress of Vienna also states the title of Grand Duke of Poznan was a personal union. It would probably start with the best intentions and by the later parts of the 19th century probably would morph into a prussian province.
Susano
Banned
Posen and Lower Rhine, both, but they didnt specifcy at all how exactly this personal union should exactly look like. Since both were organised like normal Prussian provinces from the beginning, this couldnt well work. However, the Netherlands do have an own system of government. The Stadholder-General in the late 18th century was secure in its position, unlike former times, but the Estates-General still had power, too. So it would be the E-G which would make a difference. And since the UK would have an interest in the NL not becoming a proper orussian province, they would support the rights of the E-G.
Agreed. It's only a maybe.
Could create quite a few butterflies, though. I don't see the Belgian revolt succeeding against a Netherlands in Personal union with Prussia. Also, the Netherlands could get drawn into the 1864 war with Denmark, if that still happnes. Anyone know how the Dutch navy compares to the Danish?
archaeogeek
Banned
I'm not sure about the Dutch navy, but the Danish is at this point a coastal force only; their naval order of battle in 1864 is one ironclad monitor, four ships of the line, two sail and three screw frigates along with 8 more armed steamers, about 10 corvettes and 30-ish additional small units (including transports, tugs, cutters). They have never really recovered from the Napoleonic wars.