Netherlands in the CP?

What if the Dutch had fought with the Central Powers in World War One? The British would be forced to launch an attack from Australia into Indonesia undoubtedly. And teh additional troops might help break the French forces and maybe even help the CP capture Paris. Of course this all hinges on whether someone here can find a way to make the Netherlands fight in the CP with a POD from after 1900.
 
What if the Dutch had fought with the Central Powers in World War One? The British would be forced to launch an attack from Australia into Indonesia undoubtedly. And teh additional troops might help break the French forces and maybe even help the CP capture Paris. Of course this all hinges on whether someone here can find a way to make the Netherlands fight in the CP with a POD from after 1900.

The Germans taking Paris doesn't mean that France is out, not that the Dutch enterance will cause a loss of Paris.

The attack on Indonesia I'd imagine would include a Japanese expeditionairy force, Anzac and British troops. To whom the territory goes to after the war could be devisive

As for getting Holland into the war in the first place, it's an incredibully difficult thing to do, what do they have to gain?
 
The Germans taking Paris doesn't mean that France is out, not that the Dutch enterance will cause a loss of Paris.

The attack on Indonesia I'd imagine would include a Japanese expeditionairy force, Anzac and British troops. To whom the territory goes to after the war could be devisive

As for getting Holland into the war in the first place, it's an incredibully difficult thing to do, what do they have to gain?

I think I had something along the lines of a possible Royal Union. But that could always be wrong.
 

Susano

Banned
The Germans taking Paris doesn't mean that France is out, not that the Dutch enterance will cause a loss of Paris.
It wouldnt down France just yet. France wouldnt surrender but fight on from Bordeaux. However it would be a blow hard to recover from. And seeing how close the entire affair was IOTL, that little oomph provided by additional Dutch troops could be just enough.

However:
As for getting Holland into the war in the first place, it's an incredibully difficult thing to do, what do they have to gain?
That is definitly true, and after 1914, in the long run, a German-friendly neutral Netherlands proved to be more use to the CP anyways, I think.
 
To think of the East Indies it would be interesting to see if Japan is given Mandate over any of those areas. For instance who would get Batavia?
 
To think of the East Indies it would be interesting to see if Japan is given Mandate over any of those areas. For instance who would get Batavia?

The Japanese I'd imagine would play a minor role in the campaign in the DEI, they haven't really designed the supply lines or power projection to do so yet; taking the colony would be a mostly British affair I think
 
yet at that time the East Indies were rather well defended. I could see the British taking some small islands and perhaps get control of New Guinea but Java, the Molukken (don't know the English name) nor Sumatra would fall, with the possible exception of Atjeh, but I can see the Dutch defending their colony with allot of success.

The only reason the Japanese could take the Dutch East Indies was because it was already crippled.

Batavia would also be the longest surviving Dutch holding. In the Molukken and Java I don't see the dutch getting kicked out.

Also if the Dutch time their incursion well, they could at the same time plan an attack on Malaysia and perhaps even do a 'Pearl' on the British in Australia.




But the hardest thing would be getting the Dutch into the war. The easiest thing would be having Wilhelmina merry a Prusian, but that would mean the Dutch would have a rather increased military capability, just because of the Prusian at the Dutch court. Which would also put South Africa in danger because then the Dutch would start to get the Afrikaners, or Boeren to follow them and make Africa more of a battle field.

This would also lead to the emancipation of the Flemish people in Belgium, because at that time the Dutch speaking regions were oppressed and with Dutch involvement in the war, that would most likely result in getting the Flemish people follow in the war against France and the UK.

It would also lead to Belgian Congo joining the central powers for 90% of the ruling class at that time was Flemish.

So I think it is safe to assume that if the Dutch had been part of the war because of a Prussian marrying Wilhelmina, the war would have been different. (Anti-british sentiments were high because of the resent Boer-war)
 
I think two points are of major importance if the Dutch are among the Cantral Powers:

1. Germany looses many crucially important, free harbours to circumvent the blockade. As already Susano said, neutral Netherlands are likely more important as a supplier and open door for Germany than the Netherlands as an ally.

2. Assuming the Netherlands have joined the Central Powers before the war, this may have huge butterflies. I once read that quite a lot of Dutch tax income stemmed from the East Indies. It seems that these were indeed profitable colonies - unlike everything Germany has. So the Netherlands will follow policies which guarantee free access to well defended East Indies. The Hochseeflotte cannot provide that. And as a country with a long and important naval tradition, the Dutch might actually persuade the Kaiser to follow a different approach. As a small country dependent on access to oversea but bound to land-based powers (one can see how unrealistic that is, but ok...), their goal must be to improve relations to Britain. If they succeed in doing so, it would be worth hundrets of divisions in the Great War...
 
improving relations with the British is hardly possible. The recent Boer war, a strong resentment of the British having taken the Cape colony, the British threatening the Dutch East Indies, no. But because it is hardly logical to join the Germans, Neutrality is the best option.


The Boer war was actually a large reason why the Dutch did NOT join the British in the great war
 
improving relations with the British is hardly possible. The recent Boer war, a strong resentment of the British having taken the Cape colony, the British threatening the Dutch East Indies, no. But because it is hardly logical to join the Germans, Neutrality is the best option.

OK, I accept the Boer war. But a resentment for the British taking the Cape colony? Why not a resentment for the British taking New Amsterdam? The Cape Colony is British for around a hundret years by know. Shouldn't be a problem by now.
 

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Well, assuming the Dutch go nuts and join the war, silly proposition, as described above, the Germans can move through the Maastricht appendage and funnel around Liege sooner, surrounding it without have to worry as much about it holding up the various armies. Also the Dutch, while not useful in the attack, could prove to be invaluable for holding down Belgium as occupiers, mainly by being sympathetic to the locals. Also, they could occupy Brussels and surround Antwerp, freeing up considerable troops for the right wing of the German advance. Beyond that, Dutch troops could be used to help screen Verdun as the 5th army moves on, freeing up 2-3 corps for use at the front.

All of the drawbacks of the Dutch presence in the war could be made irrelevant by their presence in the war. The Belgians then would not be able to flee Antwerp, as the Dutch could put enough men in for the siege that there will simply be no exit to slip through, which the German had left open OTL, as they did not have enough men for a proper siege.

This is huge, even if the Germans retreat at the Marne. Without Belgian manpower and with the capture of the King, Belgium could very well exit the war in 1914, leaving the British to hold the line at Ypres, which they would be unable to, and the additional Dutch manpower would give the Germans an even greater manpower advantage during the race to the sea (not even counting the loss of the Belgian troops).

So the war may not even last long enough for the blockade to really take effect. Indonesia may not even be taken and in fact, they would be able to get it back at the peace table if they have France as a hostage. While it is true that the French were keep fighting if Paris fell, it would be a severely blunted war effort, especially as the British don't have enough men in the field to compensate for the loss of the French industry and its effect on any surviving armies. Indeed Moltke's plan might work under Falkenhayn, leaving the French unable to launch offensives, while troops transfer to the East to save the day in late 1914.

If the race to the sea ends with a German/Dutch victory, which it probably will, the British will be devestated and forced to flee the continent (to return of course), but the question is where then the line reforms? The Germans and Dutch have a lot of territory to occupy, no doubt, but they have a decisive manpower advantage, one that may very well allow them to restart the maneuver war beyond the Somme river. With the British out of the equation and the Dutch tasked with holding everything behind the lines, the German can focus their strength on cracking the French line in October/November and rolling them back. This time the rail lines will have been restored and logistics won't hamstring the advance. The French can just withdraw if the line is breeched, but they are low on munitions and trained manpower and really cannot afford to let Paris be besieged again for practical industrial reasons and morale concerns (1870 all over again).
 
that resentment is an extension of the boer war. Also, I could also rephrase that.

Ever since the Napoleonic wars the Dutch have been feeling locked between getting ALL colonies taken away and being annexed by the Prusians.


For if the Dutch would start getting a more active/militant posture, they would lose allot. If they'd build a massive fleet, they would be attacked by the British. If they would build an army to protect themselves better, they would become a danger to the Prusians and thus the Prusians would attack (plus allot of more german nations).


Yet if they don't do ether of the two, they run the exact same risk. So they are locked in between two bads, but which one is worse.
 
Assuming the Dutch join the centeral powers in 1914 or 1915 one simply needs the POD of a leader syaing "what the hell let's go!" The Netherlands in the war does not mean much as they are on the Western Front. Dutch troops are not exactly considered top notch in 1914, they are trained, but not going to instantly tip the scales. Now Germany loses one of its trading partners for the war. The Netherlands are forced to depend upon Germany for trade or supplies as the RN has more than the ability to hold back the Dutch. Of course the Dutch and German fleets should be able to limit a naval landing.

Going over the colonies you will have Australia or Japan moving out. If such a thing occurs the landing in Turkey may be done with colonial not dominion troops as the ANZAC forces will be occupied in Indonesia. Japan has the superior position for taking the islands given their position in the region.

This could make an interesting future however. In 1919 Japan having large colonial holdings may allow them to end the war with a real gain, and perhaps show the government that playing the Western wolrds game can pay off. Holding this area gives much needed resources to Japan. Of course the way the allies worked in the peace conference it is possible for Japan to have taken areas of Indonesia and be denied such lands due to Wilson hating land grabs, and Australia fearing Japan.

A defeat netherlands may get off lightly, while losing its colonies. Much like Bulgaria minor debts, and freedom to start again.
 
OK, I accept the Boer war. But a resentment for the British taking the Cape colony? Why not a resentment for the British taking New Amsterdam? The Cape Colony is British for around a hundret years by know. Shouldn't be a problem by now.

OTL the Cape Colony was a very strategic colony in general, that is why the Dutch didn't like to lose it and Britain wanted to keep it. Furthermore remember that the Cape Colony (Kaapkolonie) was Dutch for a much longer time than Nieuw Amsterdam, which became New York. Another fact that the Dutch felt to be related to the Dutch, and later Afrikaans, speaking part of the Cape Colony and the later Boer Republic.
 
What if this thread moved to include the Danes in the CP? Would the combined Navies of Germany, the Netherlands, and Denmark be enough to compete with the British?
 
in Europe the British would be killed if the Danes would intervene together with the Dutch.

With the Danish and Dutch fleet helping the German one, we could actually block the British ports.

Also if the Dutch manage to attack from Sealandic Flanders and the Danish get their army in the fight soon too, Paris would have been taken and with the Dutch, Danish and German navies working together all ports could be blocked.

In the East though, the Dutch would just about fight on their own. Yet the way the KNIL and the Goevernements Marine was in that day, they would have resisted long enough. Also in the East subs were seen much more as worthwhile than in Europe, but that's got to do with the terrain.

I can even see Gibraltar falling, thus British trade falling with India, forcing India and Australia to go about it alone. Then a diplomatic envoy sent to them, while they are on their own, could promise those lands liberty, possibly resulting in the mighty British Empire falling.

So with the Dutch managing to at least keep control of the Molukken, Java, Sumatra and Borneo and the diplomatic envoy promising liberty, the East could, yet this is still debatable, be won too.


In Africa, IF the Afrikaners accept the Dutch as liberators like the Flemish would and the Flemish in Belgian Congo manage to keep their act together, Africa could too fall, leaving only the West Indies and Canada.
 
OTL the Cape Colony was a very strategic colony in general, that is why the Dutch didn't like to lose it and Britain wanted to keep it. Furthermore remember that the Cape Colony (Kaapkolonie) was Dutch for a much longer time than Nieuw Amsterdam, which became New York. Another fact that the Dutch felt to be related to the Dutch, and later Afrikaans, speaking part of the Cape Colony and the later Boer Republic.

All very true. Nevertheless, by the same argument the French should hate the British for more than hundret years after loosing Louisiana, and the British should hate the US for more than 100 years for loosing the US.

There's obviously a rather close relation of the Dutch to the Afrikaaners - as the British developped to the US. And the Boer wars obviously alienated the British from the Dutch. But I still doubt that loosing a strategic colony 100 years prior is still a factor in British-Dutch relations.

What if this thread moved to include the Danes in the CP? Would the combined Navies of Germany, the Netherlands, and Denmark be enough to compete with the British?

Good question. Well need someone who knows more about fleets back then.

AFAIK, ITTL, the German Hochseeflotte was a bit behind the British Royal Navy in the North Sea. The Dutch fleet could add something to that mix, but probably not significantly, particularly as parts of the Dutch fleet will be in the East Indies, where they'll probably face superior hostile forces even if you add the German East-Asian squadron.

Considering Denmark, it has 5.5 million inhabitants by now. I'd estimate it at 4 millions back then. Their fleet shouldn't make that much of a difference, as parts of it will be on duty in the Carribean (depends on POD) and around Iceland anyway.
 
in Europe the British would be killed if the Danes would intervene together with the Dutch.

Why? I'd estimate Danish population at around 4 million people. Their strategic value lies in blocking the Baltic - which the Germans by themselves could do anyway.

With the Danish and Dutch fleet helping the German one, we could actually block the British ports.

IOTL, the Hochseeflotte was far away from doing anything like that. The Dutch and the Danes will have a fleet on their own, obviously, but it wil be only a fraction of what the Germans and the British have. And if the Dutch and the Danes join the Central Powers early on, the British could build more ships. There could only hope to surprise the British by their entry shortly prior to the war. I think we really need someone who can specify naval strength of both the Dutch and the Danes.

Also if the Dutch manage to attack from Sealandic Flanders and the Danish get their army in the fight soon too, Paris would have been taken and with the Dutch, Danish and German navies working together all ports could be blocked.

The Danes will have around 4 million inhabitants. And you already assumed them to have a sizeable fleet fully equipped and manned. There won'T be that much of an army they could bring in.

Considering the Dutch, they wouldn't field that much men either. But you're right, some divisions ready to join the war from the beginning should speed up German advance into Belgium and help the rightern Flank of the Germans.

In the East though, the Dutch would just about fight on their own. Yet the way the KNIL and the Goevernements Marine was in that day, they would have resisted long enough. Also in the East subs were seen much more as worthwhile than in Europe, but that's got to do with the terrain.

The best they can hope for is some Lettow-Vorbeck like resistance in Indonesia. Wouldn'T do that much of a difference.

I can even see Gibraltar falling, thus British trade falling with India, forcing India and Australia to go about it alone. Then a diplomatic envoy sent to them, while they are on their own, could promise those lands liberty, possibly resulting in the mighty British Empire falling.

What? Where to begin?

1. Given that the Spanish weren't able to take Gibraltar and the Nazis/Italians weren't able to do it IOTL, how should the CP - even with help of the Dutch and Danes - do it?
2. Why should Gibraltar falling be the end of the British Raj?
3. Who do you want to sent your envoys to in India? The Germans had no success IOTL with such ideas.
4. Nobody in Australia needs to be "liberated".

So with the Dutch managing to at least keep control of the Molukken, Java, Sumatra and Borneo and the diplomatic envoy promising liberty, the East could, yet this is still debatable, be won too.

First, I doubt that the Japanese were able to invade the Dutch East Indies back then. If someone does it, it would be the British taking the main burden. Furthermore, the Dutch themselves will NOT have any interest in sending envoys promising freedom to South and South-East Asian colonial subject - whether they are British or Dutch.
 
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