A piece of Germany? The most likely part would be East Frisia, which has been Dutch before. But why would Prussia give part of Germany, which they are trying to unite? It is more likely that Prussia gives French Flanders to the Netherlands if they support Prussia in the French-Prussian war.
Netherlands and Belgium stay united
- Thread starter Parma
- Start date
The Duchy of Cleves would make some changes to became part of the Netherlands, because parts of it became under the rule of the Batavian Republic during the Napoleonic era. Maybe 1870 is to late for this move, but with a stronger Netherlands and with the mentioned scenario it would be possible after 1825.
The Duchy of Cleves has been Prussian since the 17th century, why would they give it to the Netherlands? And it is close (or even in) the ruhr area, an extremly important area in this age. I can't see Prussia giving it away to an ally. Maybe if the Netherlands joins France against Germany, France would give it to the Netherlands. But the Netherlands and France are hardly good friends in this timeline.
Sorry, I am nor certain what you want to prove with the link in your post? I know that when the borders were redrawn in 1815 the Netherlands gained some territory that used to be from the county of Cleves. The same is true for some areas of Julich and Prussian Gelre (and possibly some other principalities, but i can't confirm that). Prussia also gained some parts that used to be Dutch, like Herzogenrath (and probably some other areas I am not aware of). Still it doesn't seem a good reason for Prussia to give a part of their country to the Netherlands, just because they helped them in a war (no matter how much I would like to see a Dutch Kleef, Gulik, Oost Friesland). Generaly you give parts of the losing country to your allies and there are parts the Netherlands might want, French Flanders, perhaps French Luxembourg and French Hainaut/Henegouwen.
Anyway, we are not even sure the Netherlands gets involved in the Franco-Prussian war, so Parma, please continue.
You mentioned the Duchy Of Cleve was part of Prussia since the 17th century, but as you mentioned in your answer that wasn’t true for the whole duchy.
I haven’t written that it was given by the Prussians, there are more options.
What if it would be swapped with some parts of Luxembourg? (just keeping the options open).
Although you’re right that in this timeline some parts of France are more likely for expanding the Netherlands in Europe.
During the sixties the French military planners uder Marshal Niel developt several attack plans if a war with Prusia would brake out.
The first plan was a rapid attack in to the south of Germany forcing neutrality of the Southern German States Baden, Wurtenberg and Bavaria, before the Prusians could complete their mobilisation.
When it become clear that there was a large support in Baden, Wurtenberg and Bavaria for a united Germany and that these states probably would not be neutral in a war between Prusia and Franche, likely supporting Prusia, this plan was changed
The second plan was a very defensive plan, the whole army would concentrate on the line Thionville to Strassbourg. The army should take defensive positions dig in and wait on the advancing German armies. One army should be in reserve in the North near the border with the Netherlands to cover an surprise advance of Prusian army through this country.
This plan was from a military point of view, considering the larger Prusian army, the wisesed but did not stroke with the French military doctrine of the day which was ‘elan’, full bravore attacking the enemy.
A thrird plan evolved, which was the most ambitious of all. This very ambitous and risky plan was a combination and further development of the prevouis plans.
The French army would be devided in 3 groups. One army group would take defensive positions on the line Thionville to Strassbourg and check advancing German troops.
The second and thrd would violate the neutral Netherlands and make a sweep throug the south of this country and then crosses the border with Germany and advance into the Rhine land.
Despite the risks and the havy reliabitily on logistics it was considered as a very feasable plan. The defences of the Netherlands were heavy neglected over decades, how ever there was a start of a modernisation program for navy and army, it was estimated that the army of the Neterlands was not a big issue to worry about.
After declaration of war by Napoleon III the positions were taken and mobilisation mechanisms started.
The first army, some 150000 men under command of Marshall Bazainne, crossed the Netherlands border on the 28th july from Maubeuge towards Charleroi- Brussels. The second army, 100000 mencommanded by Marshall Mac-Mahon, marched from Charleville towards Liege Maastricht.
The third army some 50000 men ready under command of Marshal Canrobert, dug them self in , on the line Thionville - Strassbourg and would receive more men during the mobilisation.
The first plan was a rapid attack in to the south of Germany forcing neutrality of the Southern German States Baden, Wurtenberg and Bavaria, before the Prusians could complete their mobilisation.
When it become clear that there was a large support in Baden, Wurtenberg and Bavaria for a united Germany and that these states probably would not be neutral in a war between Prusia and Franche, likely supporting Prusia, this plan was changed
The second plan was a very defensive plan, the whole army would concentrate on the line Thionville to Strassbourg. The army should take defensive positions dig in and wait on the advancing German armies. One army should be in reserve in the North near the border with the Netherlands to cover an surprise advance of Prusian army through this country.
This plan was from a military point of view, considering the larger Prusian army, the wisesed but did not stroke with the French military doctrine of the day which was ‘elan’, full bravore attacking the enemy.
A thrird plan evolved, which was the most ambitious of all. This very ambitous and risky plan was a combination and further development of the prevouis plans.
The French army would be devided in 3 groups. One army group would take defensive positions on the line Thionville to Strassbourg and check advancing German troops.
The second and thrd would violate the neutral Netherlands and make a sweep throug the south of this country and then crosses the border with Germany and advance into the Rhine land.
Despite the risks and the havy reliabitily on logistics it was considered as a very feasable plan. The defences of the Netherlands were heavy neglected over decades, how ever there was a start of a modernisation program for navy and army, it was estimated that the army of the Neterlands was not a big issue to worry about.
After declaration of war by Napoleon III the positions were taken and mobilisation mechanisms started.
The first army, some 150000 men under command of Marshall Bazainne, crossed the Netherlands border on the 28th july from Maubeuge towards Charleroi- Brussels. The second army, 100000 mencommanded by Marshall Mac-Mahon, marched from Charleville towards Liege Maastricht.
The third army some 50000 men ready under command of Marshal Canrobert, dug them self in , on the line Thionville - Strassbourg and would receive more men during the mobilisation.
The army of the Netherlands consited of almost 80000 men. 60000 of them was part of the Field army and the rest was part of the fortification army. The fortification army manned the forts around Antwerp, Liege Namen, Dinant, Luxembourg, the river Ijssel and the coastal forts protectng the ports of Anwerp, Rotterdam and Amsterdam.
The main weapon of the infantery soldier was a Snider rifle wich was in essence a fore loader rebuild to a breach loader, as done by the British. As a modern touch the army were in licence build Gatling hand- cranked machineguns. However these weapons where mounted on a light field guncarriage and there for treated as a lightfield gun.
Beside this standing field army there was mobilised army which would give a total strength of some 150000 men.
Chosen by lotery every man at the age of 18 year had to serve the army for some 8 months. In practise young man who could afford it payed a poor lad to serve in his name.
Since the order of mobilisation on 16 july the mobilisation was total chaos. Men did not showed up men who came to there mobilisation points had to wait idle for days etc.
The forts were manned some of them under their strength.
The fact that the field army was uotnimbered the whole stratigy of the field army was that of delaying tactocs and retried behind several defensive lines, whit as fianal ‘refuge’ the stelling Antwerpen and the Hollandse-Waterlinie.
The Field army faced with a fast advancing French army concetrate it self around Klabeek, south of Brussels.
The first major encounter was between Nijvel and Quatre Bras, whith the advancing first army under Bazainne. This ‘battle’ was a series short violent encounters with units off the Dutch Filed army. The Dutch soldiers were the first who exerienced the superior range and fire rate of the French Chassepot rifle.
After a whole day of running battles the Dutch field army whitdraw around Brussels.
The second army of Marshall Mac-Mahon had some dificulties. Units of his army were often under fire of the Royal Ardenner Jager corps. Instaed of conquering the fortifications of Luxembourg he bypassed it and screened these strongholds with artillery and resrves while marching on to the German border.
This attack of the French army through the South of the Neterlands was some of a supprise for the German General staff. They were aware of the posibil;ity of an advance like this by the French but never took this much seriuos
The main weapon of the infantery soldier was a Snider rifle wich was in essence a fore loader rebuild to a breach loader, as done by the British. As a modern touch the army were in licence build Gatling hand- cranked machineguns. However these weapons where mounted on a light field guncarriage and there for treated as a lightfield gun.
Beside this standing field army there was mobilised army which would give a total strength of some 150000 men.
Chosen by lotery every man at the age of 18 year had to serve the army for some 8 months. In practise young man who could afford it payed a poor lad to serve in his name.
Since the order of mobilisation on 16 july the mobilisation was total chaos. Men did not showed up men who came to there mobilisation points had to wait idle for days etc.
The forts were manned some of them under their strength.
The fact that the field army was uotnimbered the whole stratigy of the field army was that of delaying tactocs and retried behind several defensive lines, whit as fianal ‘refuge’ the stelling Antwerpen and the Hollandse-Waterlinie.
The Field army faced with a fast advancing French army concetrate it self around Klabeek, south of Brussels.
The first major encounter was between Nijvel and Quatre Bras, whith the advancing first army under Bazainne. This ‘battle’ was a series short violent encounters with units off the Dutch Filed army. The Dutch soldiers were the first who exerienced the superior range and fire rate of the French Chassepot rifle.
After a whole day of running battles the Dutch field army whitdraw around Brussels.
The second army of Marshall Mac-Mahon had some dificulties. Units of his army were often under fire of the Royal Ardenner Jager corps. Instaed of conquering the fortifications of Luxembourg he bypassed it and screened these strongholds with artillery and resrves while marching on to the German border.
This attack of the French army through the South of the Neterlands was some of a supprise for the German General staff. They were aware of the posibil;ity of an advance like this by the French but never took this much seriuos
Great and i like that you use the original dutch words and not some stupid translation.
Het nederlandse volk!!!
Het nederlandse volk!!!
This attack of the French army through the South of the Neterlands was some of a supprise for the German General staff. The Prusian General Staf had considered this move of the French but thougth about it as not a serous option, regarding the distances which become between the armies. However the Prusian General Staf anticipated partly if the French attacked throught the Neterlands by concentrating the Prussian Second Army commanded by Prince Friedrich Karl (134,000 soldiers) around the city Trier.
The the Prussian First Army commanded by General Karl von Steinmetz (50,000 soldiers) opposite Saarlouis, and the Prussian Third Army commanded by Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm (125,000 soldiers) poised to cross the border at Wissembourg
The chief of staff of the German armies, Von Moltke planned Moltke planned for the First Army in concert later with the Third Army to envelop the entire French army.
Now the things changed due to the initiative taken by the French. A positive thing was that the mobilisation went according to plan and faster than the Fench anticipated. The French army started their advance without a fylly mobilised army.
29 July
Dutch field army beaten on the field and reatread towards Brussel. Cabinet moves to Antwerp. Royal family moves to The Hague.
King Frederik and his son Willem Frederik and cousin Willem, stayes with the troops in Brussel.
30July Heavy figthing on the grounds in front of the Naamse Poort.
Dutch field army suffers heavy casulties and despite renforcements from mobilasation troops the Army retreats towards Antwerp, and behind the rivers, Schelde and Waal.
Battle in front of the Naamse poort saw the first action of the Gatling machine gun, with terrifining casulties for the attracking French troops.
French second army under Marshall Mac-Mahon, move more southern than planed and reach the Forts of Luxembourg North of it.
French fleet steams up North to block the Ports of the Netherlands and the North German Confederation.
1 August
New German attackplan was to break througth the line Thionvill-Strassbourg with the First and Third army.
General von Steinmetz, is informed by his scouts about the small forcess in front of him. Not waiting untill the Third army is in place he ordered an attack on the French Third army.
This third army was by now reenforced with mobilised troops.
Marshal Canrobert who commanded this army was one of the few if not only comander who understood the true potential of the mitraleuse and there fore split the bateries up and devided this guns among the front line troops.
The mitraleuse in the front line in combination with the longer range of the Chassepot rifle and defensif positions of the troops of the French third army profed to be deadly for the attacking German troops, who have to leave the field after repeated attacks during the whole day. Loosing some 10000 men to 5000 men on the French side. Despite battered the French were holding their Ground.
2 August
Press in Paris is short of supperlatives for the success of the French army and the beating of the German First army.
Unrest in Vienna, stirred up by the news papers, demanding to join the war and take rervence of the Prussians for the defeat in 1866.
3 August
Emperor Fransz Jozeff in Vienna persuaded by his advisors and ministers and assured that the Italians stay neutral, declares war on the German States.
This events put an other mechanism in working.
In 1868 Bismarck held discussions with the Russians, if German forces were, for any reason, bogged down in the west, then Prussia's eastern and southern flanks would have been highly vulnerable. The Russian government promised to send an army of 100,000 men against the Austrians if the country joined France in a war against Prussia.
In 1870 Bismarck also had talks at Ems with Alexander Mikhailovich Gorchakov, the Russian Foreign Minister, and was assured on 14 July, days before the French declaration of war, that the agreement of 1868 still held: in the event of Austrian mobilisation the Russians confirmed that they would send 300,000 troops into Galicia.
On the mornig of 4 August
Rusia declares war on Austria-Hungary.
Both countries since the beginnning of the conflict between France and Germany and the Nehterlands had troops ready.
6 August Rusia takes the initiative and invades Galicia with an force of 200000 men, moved by train. This attack preventing the Austrians to take action against Prusia or the South German States.
The the Prussian First Army commanded by General Karl von Steinmetz (50,000 soldiers) opposite Saarlouis, and the Prussian Third Army commanded by Crown Prince Friedrich Wilhelm (125,000 soldiers) poised to cross the border at Wissembourg
The chief of staff of the German armies, Von Moltke planned Moltke planned for the First Army in concert later with the Third Army to envelop the entire French army.
Now the things changed due to the initiative taken by the French. A positive thing was that the mobilisation went according to plan and faster than the Fench anticipated. The French army started their advance without a fylly mobilised army.
29 July
Dutch field army beaten on the field and reatread towards Brussel. Cabinet moves to Antwerp. Royal family moves to The Hague.
King Frederik and his son Willem Frederik and cousin Willem, stayes with the troops in Brussel.
30July Heavy figthing on the grounds in front of the Naamse Poort.
Dutch field army suffers heavy casulties and despite renforcements from mobilasation troops the Army retreats towards Antwerp, and behind the rivers, Schelde and Waal.
Battle in front of the Naamse poort saw the first action of the Gatling machine gun, with terrifining casulties for the attracking French troops.
French second army under Marshall Mac-Mahon, move more southern than planed and reach the Forts of Luxembourg North of it.
French fleet steams up North to block the Ports of the Netherlands and the North German Confederation.
1 August
New German attackplan was to break througth the line Thionvill-Strassbourg with the First and Third army.
General von Steinmetz, is informed by his scouts about the small forcess in front of him. Not waiting untill the Third army is in place he ordered an attack on the French Third army.
This third army was by now reenforced with mobilised troops.
Marshal Canrobert who commanded this army was one of the few if not only comander who understood the true potential of the mitraleuse and there fore split the bateries up and devided this guns among the front line troops.
The mitraleuse in the front line in combination with the longer range of the Chassepot rifle and defensif positions of the troops of the French third army profed to be deadly for the attacking German troops, who have to leave the field after repeated attacks during the whole day. Loosing some 10000 men to 5000 men on the French side. Despite battered the French were holding their Ground.
2 August
Press in Paris is short of supperlatives for the success of the French army and the beating of the German First army.
Unrest in Vienna, stirred up by the news papers, demanding to join the war and take rervence of the Prussians for the defeat in 1866.
3 August
Emperor Fransz Jozeff in Vienna persuaded by his advisors and ministers and assured that the Italians stay neutral, declares war on the German States.
This events put an other mechanism in working.
In 1868 Bismarck held discussions with the Russians, if German forces were, for any reason, bogged down in the west, then Prussia's eastern and southern flanks would have been highly vulnerable. The Russian government promised to send an army of 100,000 men against the Austrians if the country joined France in a war against Prussia.
In 1870 Bismarck also had talks at Ems with Alexander Mikhailovich Gorchakov, the Russian Foreign Minister, and was assured on 14 July, days before the French declaration of war, that the agreement of 1868 still held: in the event of Austrian mobilisation the Russians confirmed that they would send 300,000 troops into Galicia.
On the mornig of 4 August
Rusia declares war on Austria-Hungary.
Both countries since the beginnning of the conflict between France and Germany and the Nehterlands had troops ready.
6 August Rusia takes the initiative and invades Galicia with an force of 200000 men, moved by train. This attack preventing the Austrians to take action against Prusia or the South German States.
1914-18
You end your sage in 1870-71, unsure whether the Netherlands would have participated or not in the Franco-Prussian War. We can however be certain that the entire Netherlands would have been dragged into the Great War (instead of just Belgium in the normal history).
This could possibly have resulted in a speedier defeat of the German Empire. With less casualties on both sides (compared to the dragged-out war effort of the Trenches) the results could have been less dramatic.
A less humiliating Treaty of Versailles, avoiding German resentment which led to nazism. Possibly no break-up of the Austrio-Hungarian Empire and a possible continuance of the German Empire. With no WW II happening there would have been no Israeli-Palestine problem, many German/Austrian Jews (Einstein,...) would have stayed in Europe making the Central-European powers more powerful, containing the USSR more eastwards and without the ravages of WW II in all likelihood there would have been no European Union.
On the other hand, the dominance of Central-European powers could also have meant more fighting in Africa between Germans, English & French troops and the emergence of a more classical, geopolitical and less ideological war in Europe between envious France & UK and Germany & Austria ? On a European scale probably just as bad as WW II but not necessarily becoming an World War...
You end your sage in 1870-71, unsure whether the Netherlands would have participated or not in the Franco-Prussian War. We can however be certain that the entire Netherlands would have been dragged into the Great War (instead of just Belgium in the normal history).
This could possibly have resulted in a speedier defeat of the German Empire. With less casualties on both sides (compared to the dragged-out war effort of the Trenches) the results could have been less dramatic.
A less humiliating Treaty of Versailles, avoiding German resentment which led to nazism. Possibly no break-up of the Austrio-Hungarian Empire and a possible continuance of the German Empire. With no WW II happening there would have been no Israeli-Palestine problem, many German/Austrian Jews (Einstein,...) would have stayed in Europe making the Central-European powers more powerful, containing the USSR more eastwards and without the ravages of WW II in all likelihood there would have been no European Union.
On the other hand, the dominance of Central-European powers could also have meant more fighting in Africa between Germans, English & French troops and the emergence of a more classical, geopolitical and less ideological war in Europe between envious France & UK and Germany & Austria ? On a European scale probably just as bad as WW II but not necessarily becoming an World War...
keep up the good job.
clifton, it's obvious that you're the same person as the OP. quit the charade, k? other peopel are commenting too.
I am not finnished yet, but I am bussy with my job. I realised I made some errors, deatails like the map, Malmedy. Which is a part of Belgium after WW1 and the history of the mitraleuse used by the French. This was a copy ''stolen'' of a Belgian Weapon manufacturerer, Montigney, invented in 1851. These voley guns were used by the Belgian Army already in 1867.
As where this time line is now; we are on the outbreak of a major European war with could end in the Austia-Hungaria Empire and or a Confederation of German states instead of an Empire dominated by Prusia.
For now i am a bit ocupied, sorry