Nene in Vienna, Sisi where?

Archduchess Sophie of Austria (née of Bavaria) was rightly called 'the Secret Empress' in her day - the woman had an iron will and a heart of ice to match. And as enthralled as she was with Sisi in her engagement, found her to be sadly lacking in her marriage. IIRC she actually preferred her second son, Max's wife, Charlotte of Belgium (who likewise had a dislike of Sisi).

The original reason that the Emperor went to Bad Ischl was to meet and be engaged to Sisi's older sister, Helene Karoline Theresia of Bavaria (a.k.a. Nene). Nene would've fitted in well at the Austrian court - far better than Sisi (their mother, Sophie and both the Queens of Saxony and Prussia agreed on this (arguably at different points)).

What if Sophie gives Franz Josef an "or else" ultimatum when she tells him to marry Nene instead of Sisi. Sophie reasons that her punctuality can be improved once they get to Vienna. And also, Sisi is very much still a child. So, Nene becomes empress instead. And then...?
 
Archduchess Sophie of Austria (née of Bavaria) was rightly called 'the Secret Empress' in her day - the woman had an iron will and a heart of ice to match. And as enthralled as she was with Sisi in her engagement, found her to be sadly lacking in her marriage. IIRC she actually preferred her second son, Max's wife, Charlotte of Belgium (who likewise had a dislike of Sisi).

The original reason that the Emperor went to Bad Ischl was to meet and be engaged to Sisi's older sister, Helene Karoline Theresia of Bavaria (a.k.a. Nene). Nene would've fitted in well at the Austrian court - far better than Sisi (their mother, Sophie and both the Queens of Saxony and Prussia agreed on this (arguably at different points)).

What if Sophie gives Franz Josef an "or else" ultimatum when she tells him to marry Nene instead of Sisi. Sophie reasons that her punctuality can be improved once they get to Vienna. And also, Sisi is very much still a child. So, Nene becomes empress instead. And then...?

Well Sisi could marry Ludwig II. They were close friends OTL and it would be a very interesting combination.
 
Well Sisi could marry Ludwig II. They were close friends OTL and it would be a very interesting combination.

Agreed: with Sisi's wanderslust and Ludwig's castlebuilding, a kid of their's won't just build castles in Bavaria, but wherever the voices in their head tell them to.:D

Although, in Hamann's The Reluctant Empress, Sisi goes to Bad Ischl to get her out of a funk she's in due to the love for a nobody, and also as her Aunt Sophie thought of her marrying the younger brother of FJ, Karl Ludwig or Ludwig Viktor.
 
Yes I believe Sophie had intended Sisi to marry Karl Ludwig.

As for what happens with an Empress Helene, as was pointed out, there will probably be more little Archdukes and Archduchesses. Rudolph is obviously butterflied away, and even if Franzl's heir is liberally minded without Sisi's influence he likely will be better at navigating Court politics (or at least at navigating his father), leading to an Empire more likely to reform. What people forget is that Franz Joseph was a reactionary much for the same reason Metternich was (well initially), both felt they had to be, and had a reasonable alternative arisen they would have happily taken that. Then again it was FJ, not a liberal Parliament, who decreed universal manhood suffrage. Likewise, he privately (IIRC) supported giving the Czechs their own crown (I'm trying to remember from Twilight of the Habsburgs, which I haven't read in ages). So if he has a liberally minded heir, to whom he's close, as opposed to Rudolf and Franz Ferdinand, the Empire begins to look different. This Crown Prince is like Karl come-early but hopefully with a more forceful personality (gained from his father of course).
 
This Crown Prince is like Karl come-early but hopefully with a more forceful personality (gained from his father of course).

I would've thought the forcefulness would be from Sophie rather. Also, might Sophie not do what she did with Sisi's children - Archduke Rudolf and Archduchesses Sophie and Gisela - where she viewed her daughter-in-law as too childish to supervise children, with Empress Helena's children as well?
 
Well, not having Sisi in Vienna might work out less fortunate for the Hungarians. Although, Sisi's reason for liking them over the Czech or Viennese aristocracy had partially to do with the fact that they didn't obsess that she was less well-born than they were (her paternal grandmother was a member of the Belgian aristocracy, not royal) and also because the Viennese (among others) disapproved of her childhood home at Posenhofen.
Helene is going to have all these problems - as well as her disregard for punctuality (IIRC she missed trains regularly etc) k but will she be able to rise above the pettiness and become the empress Sisi never was in Sophie's eyes?
 
Could Sisi have convinced Ludwig to scale back his castle building? Not to abandon his plans, but to build his castles one at a time, such as by diverting him toward more patronage of other arts. Perhaps Neuschwanstein would have been completed.
 
Bump!
I've found myself wondering this question again. Sisi's siblings all married after her match to FJ, which makes it seem like they were perhaps trading on their sister being the wife of the emperor. They'd probably do so if Helene gets the ring instead of Sisi, but that still leaves Sisi unattached.

I thought marrying her to Ludwig II of Bavaria might be fun - Mayerling a generation early, perhaps? But I was wondering where else she might marry?
 
Nene sat on the shelf for a while after her failed engagement (I'm not quite sure why, she seems pretty enough), and I can't find any talk of suitors who were considered for her. But I assume there was at least one prince who was interested in her (besides the Prince of Thurn und Taxis). Would he be considered for Sisi here? Or would it be a case of Sisi would have different suitors?
 
What about a match between Sisi and the Comte de Paris? The Wittelsbachs married younger daughter Sophie to the duc d'Alençon, so clearly they had no problem with the Orléans boys. Alternatively, the future Ferdinando IV of Tuscany, or Archduke (later emperor) Maximilian.
 
Sisi-Max sounds like one that could have legs. Makes sense that Sophie would've tried to wed her second son to her younger niece (she originally wanted one of Ludovika's other daughters for Karl Ludwig/Ludwig Viktor). However, a match with the Cte de Paris would've been fascinating - mostly since it would rewrite the geneaologies of several Catholic royal families (Orléans, Bourbon-Naples, Savoy-Aosta, Portugal etc). I can just see an alt-Hélène d'Orléans (TTL Gisela of Austria) marrying Eddy (especially since Sisi said of Gisela that if "she [Gisela] wanted to marry the chimneysweep, she [Sisi] would back her"
 
Well Sisi could marry Ludwig II. They were close friends OTL and it would be a very interesting combination.
Sisi was almost 8 years his senior so she would likely have been married by the time he came of age. The marriage, if it ever came to it, IOTL he broke off the engagement to her youngest sister, with whom he shared his devotion for the composer Richard Wagner, and was never married or even just engaged again later on, would likely not have lasted, since Ludwig II seems to have been homo-, not bisexual.
 
Nene sat on the shelf for a while after her failed engagement (I'm not quite sure why, she seems pretty enough), and I can't find any talk of suitors who were considered for her. But I assume there was at least one prince who was interested in her (besides the Prince of Thurn und Taxis). Would he be considered for Sisi here? Or would it be a case of Sisi would have different suitors?

I think Nene "sitting on a shelf" had to do with her own reaction to being dumped for her little sister. That lead to self-esteem and emotional issues which not only made her an undesirable bride but also left her less than keen on marriage. Any suitors rejected by Nene likely were dismissed because she didn't feel like marrying anyone after losing FJ, something which wouldn't be a problem for Sissi.
 
I think Nene "sitting on a shelf" had to do with her own reaction to being dumped for her little sister. That lead to self-esteem and emotional issues which not only made her an undesirable bride but also left her less than keen on marriage. Any suitors rejected by Nene likely were dismissed because she didn't feel like marrying anyone after losing FJ, something which wouldn't be a problem for Sissi.

Makes sense. Although the marriage with the Prince von Thurn und Taxis was apparently a last ditch attempt (both my Sisi bio, Hamann's The Reluctant Empress, and wiki seem to say this) to keep Nene out of a convent. Which would imply that the girl had expressed this view rather earnestly, it may also have been that "well, if the emperor doesn't want me maybe God will?" sort of dejection.
 
Archduchess Sophie has no way of order to her son the Emperor to marry Helene if he want Elisabeth but, if Sissi was not with her mother and sister to Bad Ischl, he would have likely accepted to marry Helene. With her sister safely married to the Emperor (who here will have a much happier family life than his OTL one), Elisabeth can either marry the future Francis II of Naples (the OTL husband of her sister Marie Sophie) or one of the younger brothers of Franz Joseph (likely either Max or Karl) but the Comte of Paris also is an interesting choice...
 
Archduchess Sophie has no way of order to her son the Emperor to marry Helene if he want Elisabeth but, if Sissi was not with her mother and sister to Bad Ischl, he would have likely accepted to marry Helene. With her sister safely married to the Emperor (who here will have a much happier family life than his OTL one), Elisabeth can either marry the future Francis II of Naples (the OTL husband of her sister Marie Sophie) or one of the younger brothers of Franz Joseph (likely either Max or Karl) but the Comte of Paris also is an interesting choice...

I thought the Cte de Paris was rather inspired. He married a cousin OTL for seemingly no rhyme or reason besides the fact that no one else seemingly wanted to marry him (I could be wrong on this point).
 
So this is more for a scenario where FJ marries Elisabeth, but since OTL the plan was for Helene to snag the Emperor and her sister to wed one of his brothers (Maximilian probably), why wasn't the reverse ever tried? Nene was born in 1834, so she'd still be younger than FJ's brothers, Maximilian (b.1832) and Karl (b.1833).

And if neither of them were interested, these archdukes were single and of age:
Stephan, Palatine of Hungary (b.1817) or his brother, Josef Karl (b.1833)
Any of the Viceroy of Lombardy's sons (Leopold (b.1823), Ernst (b.1824, married morganatically in 1858), Sigmund (b.1826), and Heinrich (b.1827)).

She's just missed these two, but with the right POD Nene could presumably land either.
Ferdiinando IV of Tuscany (b.1835) m.1856 to a Saxon wife (a cousin of Nene's) who died in 1859 (Saxon girls didn't seem to last in Florence)
Karl Ferdinand of Teschen (b.1818) m. 1854 to the widowed Elisabeth of Austria

Hell, the King of Italy, Victor Emanuele II was widowed in 1855, so maybe Nene/Sisi could go to Turin as a Habsburg proxy? Or were Bavaria and Savoy not on speaking terms?
 
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