Need info Pearl Harbor ship lis

Does anyone know what ships were in or near Pearl Harbor in July of 1941? It's almost impossible to find this information online.
I'm trying to theorize what would've happened had the Japanese attacked on July 4 instead.
Also, does anyone know if there would've been regular sorties and patrols on Independence Day? Or would the soldiers have gotten an easy day, maybe celebrations or leave?
 

CalBear

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Short version is that the Japanese can't pull it off.

Shokaku and Zuikaku are not in commission, the planner believed that the attack required six decks.

Soryu and Hiryu are both in the South China Sea to support the final phase of Japan's invasion of French Indochina.

There is also the not insignificant matter regarding the Embargo. It does not yet exist. It was not begun, and Japanese assets were not frozen, until July 26, 1941.

As an aside, Kaga and Akagi were both still equipped be A5M Claude fighters in July of 1941.

I can tell you that the Battle Line was in port on July 4th. December 7th was the first weekend since then that the entire Battle Force was at Pearl. The only reason the entire force was there was because the missions to run aircraft to Wake and Midway were so "hot" that the carrier's were on high speed runs the whole way and the BB couldn't keep up. Usually half (or more) of the Battle Force was at sea at all times.
 
Sorry, I should've elaborated. This is part of a TL I'm writing with a PoD in 1933. The short of it is that WWII is generally accelerated, and starts in March 1939 instead of September. There are several big differences. Most importantly to this discussion, Japan is already at war with the wallies, but doesn't really do much other than take the concessions and ports in China and fight a few inconclusive naval battles (the Japanese invasion of China is going worse than OTL, so they're distracted), and British-American relations have been badly damaged by a series of actions by the British (the British are much more aggressive in this TL, even preemptively intervening in Norway to stop the Germans from invading), the war generally follows history, but ahead by a few months. The embargo begins in January, and is even more harsh (because of the aforementioned significant differences), and the Japanese decide they can't wait for the Shokaku and Zuikaku, but still need to launch a crushing surprise attack on Pearl. At the expense of their other operations, the Japanese decide to launch the attack anyways with everything they can scrape together. Because of the limitations on their fleet, the Japanese don't attack the Philippines immediately.
Thanks for the info Calbear
(Probably should've put this stuff in the initial post, but oh well)
 

nbcman

Donor
If WW2 is generally accelerated compared to OTL then the US preparedness is accelerated. So the US is stronger but Japan is weaker compared to OTL.

BTW if Japan struck earlier they would have attacked South and not PH. PH occurred because of the improvement in the IJN in decks aircraft and weapons.
 
I can tell you that the Battle Line was in port on July 4th. December 7th was the first weekend since then that the entire Battle Force was at Pearl. The only reason the entire force was there was because the missions to run aircraft to Wake and Midway were so "hot" that the carrier's were on high speed runs the whole way and the BB couldn't keep up. Usually half (or more) of the Battle Force was at sea at all times.

Do you know what capital ships made up the Pacific Battle Line at the time? It's very hard to find these sorts of things.
Also, do you know how the day's operations would've gone on Independence Day? As in, would there have been a reduced work load, maybe even leave or celebrations? And what would the sortie contingents have been like? Would there've been fewer ships than normal patrolling around Hawaii because of the holiday, or more because of the inherent danger of having so many ships in port?
 
If WW2 is generally accelerated compared to OTL then the US preparedness is accelerated. So the US is stronger but Japan is weaker compared to OTL.

BTW if Japan struck earlier they would have attacked South and not PH. PH occurred because of the improvement in the IJN in decks aircraft and weapons.

Well, the US should actually be less prepared, not more, because of the reduced amount of lend-lease (US-UK relations are strained, but not enough for the US to fully abandon them).
Also, I thought the whole point of the PH attack was because the Japanese knew that unless they landed a crushing surprise attack and crippled the US Pacific Fleet, they had no chance. So in my view, Japan would either go for PH, or do nothing at all. The whole idea of the Japanese war plan was to land a killer blow right from the start, because otherwise they'd just get steamrolled by American manufacturing. This is even more important with them already at war with Britain.
 

CalBear

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Your best bet to get this sort of information is to research each ship. It takes a bit of time.

This site will provide a abbreviated Tabular Record of Movement, mainly indicating when the ships were in the yard and what squadron they were assigned to at any given time.

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/battlesh/
 
I have been posting a lot of links in my thread, one of which is a pretty good list of where the ships are deployed in the years leading up to World War II for the RN and USN

it covers 1939 on for the USN, and has 1937 for the RN. But it shows only ships assigned to commands, not their location specifically. You should be able to make some inferences though. As not many ships were built (none to speak of during the Hoover Administration) that will help some too. Basically there wasn't a lot of reshuffling aside from ships in the Asiatic Fleet (and then only the destroyers or larger moved in and out). The gunboats in China only moved in the countdown to Pearl Harbor, while new construction generally spent time in the Atlantic fitting out, doing shake down and crew training before moving anywhere, while the oldest battleships were in the Atlantic. Just remember US battleships operate in groups of 3

http://www.fleetorganization.com/index.html
 
Sorry, I should've elaborated. This is part of a TL I'm writing with a PoD in 1933. The short of it is that WWII is generally accelerated, and starts in March 1939 instead of September. There are several big differences. Most importantly to this discussion, Japan is already at war with the wallies, but doesn't really do much other than take the concessions and ports in China and fight a few inconclusive naval battles (the Japanese invasion of China is going worse than OTL, so they're distracted), and British-American relations have been badly damaged by a series of actions by the British (the British are much more aggressive in this TL, even preemptively intervening in Norway to stop the Germans from invading), the war generally follows history, but ahead by a few months. The embargo begins in January, and is even more harsh (because of the aforementioned significant differences), and the Japanese decide they can't wait for the Shokaku and Zuikaku, but still need to launch a crushing surprise attack on Pearl. At the expense of their other operations, the Japanese decide to launch the attack anyways with everything they can scrape together. Because of the limitations on their fleet, the Japanese don't attack the Philippines immediately.
Thanks for the info Calbear
(Probably should've put this stuff in the initial post, but oh well)


With quite a different timeline you would have different motivations for the US deciding where to base their fleet. Part of the reason for basing the ships at Pearl was to apply pressure to Japan, the Navy felt they were quite exposed. Perhaps if the US is being more aggressive they would keep the important ships further back.

In which case maybe your Pearl Harbour raid should be on a West coast port?
 

nbcman

Donor
Well, the US should actually be less prepared, not more, because of the reduced amount of lend-lease (US-UK relations are strained, but not enough for the US to fully abandon them).
Also, I thought the whole point of the PH attack was because the Japanese knew that unless they landed a crushing surprise attack and crippled the US Pacific Fleet, they had no chance. So in my view, Japan would either go for PH, or do nothing at all. The whole idea of the Japanese war plan was to land a killer blow right from the start, because otherwise they'd just get steamrolled by American manufacturing. This is even more important with them already at war with Britain.

Japan's strategy of Kantai Kessen was to fight a Decisive defensive battle against the US after the US fleet was attritted by aircraft and subs as they traveled through the Japanese Mandate islands. Only after the US fleet was weakened to near parity would the IJN Combined Fleet come forth for the decisive surface battle.

The Japanese planning for a PH attack didn't begin until the Spring of 1941 and training for the attack took at least 6 months. So to get a July 1941 PH attack, the IJN planning would need to start by the Fall of 1940.

Finally, the US would be better prepared in the Pacific especially if the US didn't supply the UK with lend lease because the US began to gear up military production and to authorize a draft in response to the Fall of France. It would also free up the US from having to garrison various bases such as Iceland, Bermuda, and Newfoundland and to use those forces in the Pacific.
 
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With a POD some time ago you probably can have any ships you like in pearl or elsewhere -

It might be irony, but a lesser number of ships in Pearl might increase the damage the Japanese can do. If they expext only 6 BBs they might divers some planes to attack the oiltanks and workshops... ;)
 
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