Need Help: Japanese Empire

Hi there,

I'm a new poster here (though a longtime watcher of this amazing site) and I need some help with an alternate history scenario I literally dreamed up. The other night I had a spookily detailed dream about a Japanese-occupied New Zealand in the 90's (presumably after WWII), but according to world maps featured in said dream Nazi Germany is nothing nor is Facist Italy (in fact, Europe appears just as it did post WWII and post Cold War as it does OTL).

I want to write a short story based on the dream, but I need help making it plausible. Is there any way possible that Japan could have conquered Australia and New Zealand, without being owned by the US, and having Germany and Italy defeated in the same timeline? The only way I see this happening is if instead of bombing Pearl Harbour Japan kept at it's attacks on European colonial possessions, which got America involved but not in such a huge scale. I mean, why would the US worry so much about British possessions in India, Australia and New Zealand when Britain itself is being attacked and beaten in Europe? But of course the Japanese were intent on Pearl Harbour, weren't they?

Anyway, like I said, any help on making this plausible would be greatly appreciated.
 
This is pretty much asb as either if the Superpowers are likely to get involved eventually ans Australia just isnt going to fall.

Anyway Japan discovers the oil on Sakhalin and in 1942 invade only European colonies and by the end of 1942 they have what they have OTL minus the Phillipines and Guam. Then have them launch a speedy invasion of Australia like the Phillipines with full force using Ushijimas tactical genius and the element of suprise. After Australia has been crippled and in stalemate the IJN launches an invasion of New Zealand which has been badly stripped of troops.

America will need to be a lot more isolationist in this TL not intervening in either front although there are calls for an embargo on Japan and Germany. By 1946 the Red Army has reachd the Rhine and the British land a token force in France to prevent further Soviet expansion. The Germans happily surrender. The Soviets have taken much heavier losses in this TL and although he plans to invade Manchuria one of these days he needs to rebuild the broken Soviet Union first.

In November 1946 Japan shocks the world by breaking the stalemate in Australia with an atomic bomb (No bombing of Tokyo and theyre project was the furthest any axis nation got.) the Australian government surrenders after Japan threatens to use a 2nd. Soviet plans to attack Japan never come into fruition as the Japanese have several bombs by the time the Red Army is ready.

War weary Britain makes peace on the condition it keeps India and Burma.

Not very plausible but hows that?
 
Hmm.. It really is a difficult one, isn't it? I don't like nukes very much.

Thanks a lot for the reply though. The way I see it, I'm just going to have to make it quite ASB then. I think, seeing as it's a short story rather than a timeline or anything, some things can be changed for the sake of a good read, right?

Maybe I'll just industrialise Japan earlier to give it better weapons. The thing about Australia is that they bombed Darwin already, so I imagined if they pursued that further they could gain something. Perhaps America is more isolationist and doesn't get involved in Japan's theatre at all, being more concerned with Nazi Germany's gains in Europe. I mean, when I think about it, does America have a lot to lose if Japan takes Burma and the East Indies? Or invades India? A lot of Britain's troops came from india, didn't they? And ANZAC forces were so preoccupied fighting the Afrikakorps and such in North Africa that they didn't have much defense against the Japs, aside from the ANZUS Treaty (which was the 20's, if I remember correctly?). So maybe, ANZUS never happens, US invades Europe and Germany, etc. Japan conquers Southeast Asia and the Pacific. The Soviets are another problem though. Surely they would be afraid of the Japanese threat, and they wanted to invade the northern islands...

Oh how confusing. Lots of ASB to make this happen.
 
Hmm.. It really is a difficult one, isn't it? I don't like nukes very much.

Thanks a lot for the reply though. The way I see it, I'm just going to have to make it quite ASB then. I think, seeing as it's a short story rather than a timeline or anything, some things can be changed for the sake of a good read, right?

Maybe I'll just industrialise Japan earlier to give it better weapons. The thing about Australia is that they bombed Darwin already, so I imagined if they pursued that further they could gain something. Perhaps America is more isolationist and doesn't get involved in Japan's theatre at all, being more concerned with Nazi Germany's gains in Europe. I mean, when I think about it, does America have a lot to lose if Japan takes Burma and the East Indies? Or invades India? A lot of Britain's troops came from india, didn't they? And ANZAC forces were so preoccupied fighting the Afrikakorps and such in North Africa that they didn't have much defense against the Japs, aside from the ANZUS Treaty (which was the 20's, if I remember correctly?). So maybe, ANZUS never happens, US invades Europe and Germany, etc. Japan conquers Southeast Asia and the Pacific. The Soviets are another problem though. Surely they would be afraid of the Japanese threat, and they wanted to invade the northern islands...

Oh how confusing. Lots of ASB to make this happen.

Maybe give the Japanese better tanks and tactics.

They're major downfall was that they could not win major land campaigns.
 
Europe having the post-1945 borders does not necessarily mean that the USA is OK. Maybe have some sort of non-Nazi Germany arise which gets the nuclear bomb developed and ends up in a war with the USA, using it on them. America would have too much to worry about to focus on Japan as well, especially if the Japanese don't attack them

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
As it had mentioned earlier, not to attack Pearl Harbour. Second, better treatment of chinese population in continent and stronger investment of searching metal and oil deposit in China (including Sakhalin). Third, "co-operation" with the Germans, they had technologies you need so you can buy it. But when they suggest "Let's declare war to US", you have to say "Thanks. but no thanks".
The Japanese had the biggest submarine fleet in the beginning of WW2, but their tactics was very poor. Also some minor thinking like their medical troops and sea-rescue capabilities was blank zero.
 
The Japanese Empire - New Zealand

If you want an idea as to where to start try checking out New Zealand As It Might've Been which is edited by Stephen Levine. One of the questions examined is what might have been if the Japanese had invaded New Zealand in World War Two.

Though there have been many althistories I've considered I have never considered the idea of a Japanese invasion and occupation of New Zealand seriously. But it is worth hunting around your local library to find books on World War Two in the Pacific to find out what the Japanese did in the countries they occupied and it is also worth bearing in mind that, unlike other areas occupied by Japan, New Zealand is likely to have been administered quite differently on account that New Zealand's population of about 1.5 million was predominately white and was not a colony at the time.

An idea: in OTL Somes Island in Wellington Harbour was used as a prison camp for Italian, Japanese and German enemy aliens during World War Two. In ATL the Japanese would've used it as a concentration camp for imprisoning the Chinese community and other foreign nationals they didn't like.


Hope this helps. :)
 
Those are some good ideas. I often find that New Zealand doesn't get a lot of alternate history, when a lot could have happened to it. Dutch rule, French rule of the South Island, a loss in the Maori land wars... A lot could've happened. I've tried my best to make this happen without using nukes.

What I've gathered from this discussion so far is that Japan needed to have better people leading their operations who were better at making decisions, and they needed to ignore Pearl Harbour to keep US involvment at a minimum.

Would they have needed to take more of China? Perhaps set up more puppet regimes like they did in Manchuria, where their governments have to give them oil.

Thanks for everyone's help. I'm liking that the idea has attracted attention.
 

The Vulture

Banned
My thinking:

Instead of an attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese instead focus their resources on Australia and New Zealand, possibly using chemical and biological weapons (the Japanese weren't shy about using them in China).

Concurrently, the Germans or Italians, or possibly even the Hungarians, do something that so angers the US, they turn their attention purely towards Europe and crush the opposition there earlier than in OTL before nukes are developed and before Stalin can ensnare Eastern Europe. Thus, America feels like justice has been done, but does not feel an obligation to police the world or interfere in foreign politics, thus leaving Britain to fight the Japanese alongside Australia and India.

My idea has some holes, I know, but I hope you see what I'm driving at.
 
I do like that idea. It drives nukes out of the equation (in my opinion they just cause too much damage to far more than they're supposed to to make a good storyline). The Italians were pretty much screwed from the beginning anyway, so I can easily write them out of the equation. What could the Nazis do to the USA that angers them so much? Maybe the Nazis invade Hawaii instead, for a grander scheme, or maybe Nazi officials make it into the USA and start rallying. Or Mexico and Cuba (Cuba has always seemed like an easy-to-manipulate place to me). It greatly outraged the USA when Russia got involved in Cuba, so would the Nazis have the same effect?
 

The Vulture

Banned
Well, America was a little more isolationist at the time and less concerned with stopping Communism and containment than keeping our own country going.

This might be a ridiculous idea, but what if the Germans were to arm fascist groups in Mexico (the Goldshirts), Canada (the Canadian Union of Fascists), and America (the German-American Bund, the Silver Shirts) hoping to destabilize North America and prevent them from supplying Britain?

That way, the Americans are focused on an internal rebellion and getting vengeance on Britain.

Heck, while we're following this scenario, we might as well suppose DC Stephensson and his Ku Klux Klan, which might have well have been a paramilitary body in thoise days, plays an instrumental role in supressing the Fascist rebellions. Their acceptance as heroes leads to a more institutionalized rascism and wider acceptance of their views, which were heavily anti-communist, and might be considered Fascism Lite. Hence, a dislike of Russia gaining steam and less caring about what Japan does. This might very well lead to a three-way Cold War.

Sorry for the rambling, disjointed post.
 
How about this, it's a bit more outlandish but doesn't require as many points of departure:

Germans take Moscow in Barbarossa and manage to defeat the Spviet Union by early 1943 forcing the U.S. to devote much more of its resources to defeating a now kickass Germany and defending Britain. The Japanese act as they did in OTL though with more success against the Allies (since U.S. resources are tied down elsewhere) thus taking Australia and New Zealand. By 1943 however the Japanese carrier forces have been smashed as in the OTL (Midway still happens) but the army isnt stuck defending Guadalcanal since the U.S. doesn't land there, and is having much more success in China since the Soviets and U.S. can't provide any aid to the Chinese at all.

By say 1945 the Japanese realize that the Axis is going to lose the war anyway because the U.S. is so powerful (though it may take much longer with astronomical casualties) and defect to the Allies, opening a second front against the Germans in Siberia with the proviso that any territorial disputes between Japan the U.S. and Britain be settled after the Germans are defeated. The Manhatten Project is delayed because the U.S. spends its money elsewhere and Germany isn't defeated until around 1948-49.

Europe gets divided up into modern day borders after the war.
Meanwhile both the Japanese and the U.S. have completed atomic bombs of their own and the Japanese use the threat of Nuclear Armageddon to retain their captured territory except for Siberia, which the Russians retake through a vicious guerrilla campaign.

I hope that's useful, it is kinda long but Japanese holding off the U.S./Brits from retaking Australia/N.Z. seems like the easiest way to "solve" this timeline while keeping Europe the same i.e. Nazi, Italian, eventual Soviet defeat
 
That's perfect! No-one dare point out any flaws :p

Pretty much exactly what I need. Thanks a million!

Of course, eventually they would all turn on Japan anyway, but that's what the story is largely about.

Thanks :)
 
As a fellow Kiwi and alternate history fan, I say just go for it and the POD will reveal itself as you write. Set the scene and just reveal glimpes of what happened (depending on if your wriitng as fiction or as a history book from the 1990s of the ATL).
I had a similar idea for a novel about a Cold War with Japan set in the 1990's, but it would only extend to Indonesia and most of South East Asia, and Aus and NZ would be the frontline of the democracies against fascist Japan.
 
I created this account last November than forgot I ever had! I think this might be my first post :eek::p

Anyway, back to topic: We know that the Japanese hoped to colonize Australia in the post-war years. The Japanese were not genocidal, exactly, so they would not have killed the British-descended Aussies- they seemed to have planned to relocate the few million total into one portion of Australia (they was certainly enough room to go around) and then settle the rest with Japanese. As for New Zealand...I'm not sure what they wanted to do with it. It certainly was a much more amenable place to Japanese settlers, geography-wise. I have no doubt in my mind that if the Axis won World War 2 New Zealand would have simply declared independence and fought on by itself. No..New Zealand just doesn't seem like anything the Japanese could use. What do you do with the people?


Okay- so I reread the original scenario:

First of all, it's very hard to see the United States entering the war in Europe without Japan bringing it to them. Roosevelt was determined on war from the start but most Americans weren't and he needed some attack on America itself to serve as a cause. So, perhaps Hitler could go nuts and do something very offensive to the United States, or he could just choose to declare war on the USA. If the USA never enters the war, and Germany and Italy are defeated regardless, you might be looking at a Soviet Europe. I don't see how Britain could have pulled off D-Day on it's own.
 
Vulture - considering this entire thread is basically a giant brainstorm, I have to say that i found your scenario pretty helpful. The basic U.S. defeats Nazis had to stand otherwise the only way Europe would've looked the same would've been a series of crazy-ass coincidences.
So thanks for setting a good framework.
 
Does the POD have to be in the 1931-1941 period or can it stretch half a century earlier?


Britain started troubles with the USA in the very early 1900s, during these times Germany is most supportive of british policies. The USA suffers humiliating defeats. In WW1, the USA enters the war on allied side and British Empire on central powers side.

The central powers looses and britain is forced to accept the independence of Scotland and Irlande (while Canada is directly annexed by the USA) after the war and looses a lot of colonies but unlike Germany still retains territories in Africa and have allies in Australia and New Zealand.

Economic crisis causes an imperialist military junta to take power. 1939, the start of WW2. Irlande and Scotland are invaded, French colonial empire is divided between germany and Greater Britain. The USA mobilises after the fall of France and the british military decides to launch a serie of surprise attacks to destroy the US navy (September 1940). They are sucessfull and british fleets are able to shell a good number of east coast cities. US overseas colonies are taken except Panama. Japan join the war on US side, the USA stays in the war. The british wages war against Japan from Australia and New Zealand.

In 1941, the US east coast is well protected against the british fleets by the US airforce. By 1942, US navy joins upp with Japanes navy in the Phillipines, while US expedition force is sent to the Indochines front. 1943, after Hawaii is retaken, the US abandonne the pacific for waging war against the British-German alliance. 1944, allies and axis starts exchanging nuclear bombes but conventional warfare stays the deciding factor.
In 1945, the red army enters Berlin and the armies of the americas enters London, both cities had been struck multiple times with atomic bombes by that time.
Australia and New Zealand are overtaken by Japan, wich gain economic influence over eastern asia. Eventually the cold war starts ( later than IOTL), Japan becomes an anti-communist allie.
Only in the 1980s, as the TTL equivalent of the soviet union reforme itself, the USA becomes more concerned about the Japanes empire.
 
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