Neanderthals in the America's

[Valdemar II]

No 10 to 30 are enough with a little luck, with 30 thousand years without competion and in a fertile virgin territorium you don't need more. Of course modern Neanderthals are going to have a very small gene pool, which would mean few bloodtypes and weakness to disease. But mixing with the Native American will increase the size of the genepool and create a more diverse population

 

[Domoviye]

I think 10 to 30 neanderthals could be too less. There are experts on the board who can explain about required genetic variety, though. Considering the extinction of Neanderthals: Yesterday I saw a television show featuring a biological anthropologist who stated that the reason for their extinction was that Neanderthals were predominantly meat-eaters, hence hunters, whereas Cro Magnon was Hunter-gatherer, therefore held a more variable diet and thus could provide for a far higher population density. Higher population density in turn decreases the effects of natural disasters, enriches the gene pool and simplifies cultural exchange, making it far easier for Cro Magnon to outcompete Neanderthals. Nevertheless, this outcompeting IMHO likely took the above described form of hybridization and killing and happened at a time of massive climate changes.

I realize its a very low gene pool but it can work. There was a detailed discussion of a similar nature on the thread "Green Antarctica" and as Valdemar said its possible with some luck. Also some genetic tests show that Native Americans' got to North America in about the same number.
For the second part of your comment you will notice that I mentioned they were mostly hunters and part time fishermen at first. The original POD isn't Neanderthals reaching North America, its a band that was fairly isolated from the rest of Europe developing a taste for fish. There is virtually no sign that Neanderthals ate fish IOTL, they were entirely big game hunters who enjoyed a small salad once in a while.
So the group that reached North America were already slightly more diverse in diet then European Neanderthals, this allowed them to at least stay even with the Native Americans when humans finally showed up.

No 10 to 30 are enough with a little luck, with 30 thousand years without competion and in a fertile virgin territorium you don't need more. Of course modern Neanderthals are going to have a very small gene pool, which would mean few bloodtypes and weakness to disease. But mixing with the Native American will increase the size of the genepool and create a more diverse population

Thanks for answering that.
Neanderthals will have genetic problems, but these will be lessened through interbreeding. Although the interbreeding will have some trouble as well.

 

[Domoviye]

Idea for this post copied rather shamelessly from DValdrons "Green Antarctica". All names chosen at random.


**

Thilan Lover
Member, 13 posts

Hey guys, what do you think would have happened if the great sloth (OTL Mylodon) of the Summer Lands (OTL Amazon Basin) had been domesticated? With a domestic animal that large for farm labour and meat do you think Australis could have been as advanced as Thila? Or maybe even Eurasia?
_____

Chinless Wonder
Member, 1000 posts

Ugh, how many threads do we have about this stuff?
The ground sloths of Australis are too solitary and violent to be domesticated. It would be like domesticating a grizzly bear.
Do a search before starting a pointless thread.
_____

Thilan Lover
Member, 10 posts

Geeze give me a break. I did a search but couldn't find anything.
If the ground sloths are out, what if they domesticated the bison. I know the giant bison of the Thila plains isn't domesticable, but what about the Lesser Bison? I've heard that bison burgers are great to eat.
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King of Sweden
Member, 505 posts

Chinless take it easy on the new kid, most of those threads are over a year old.
To answer the OP, most of the animals that can be domesticated were. Australis horses, llama's and alpaca's* along with Australis Pigs (guinea pigs), parrots and the Avalonian Duck are the only things that can really be domesticated in Australis. The big animals in the Summer Lands are too solitary, violent or able to escape from early farmers too easily.
The Australis horse and llama's are both herd animals, most other animals on the continent aren't.

Edit
Posted at the same time you did Thilan Lover.
The bison aren't very good domestics either. They don't have a set leader to focus on, so even today they are hard to control using trucks, metal fences and other kinds of modern technology.
Its just not going to happen.
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Whitewand
Member, 1000 posts

The Thilan and Skrealings domesticated everything realistically possible in Australis and Thila.
As King said they got the two big herd animals in the south, and they domesticated the pygmy elephant and the black camels in the north. Pretty much everything else in the Western hemisphere is too scared, violent or solitary to be domesticated.
Frankly its amazing that those four survived. Most of the other domesticable animals were wiped out 10,000 years ago. Only the meanest, or fastest producing mega-fauna survived, along with some of the predators. If things had gone the way they did in Oceanica (Australia) by rights everything should have been wiped out.
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D.J.
Member, Post 191

Sorry to derail the topic a little but why exactly did those four survive and the rest died.
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King of Sweden
Member, 505 posts

The basic reason is that humans came along. Humans used different means of hunting than Thilans and most of the animals weren't ready for it. Thilans hunted by ambush and short chases, humans acted differently by running them into the ground.
As the ice age ended, the lose of habitat, hunting by both humans and thilans, possibly combined with a mega disease wiped out most of the animals.
The animals that survived were the fastest breeders, or very used to hominid predators. Millennia of being hunted by the Thilans made them instinctively avoid any hominids.
Thats why the horses and bison found in the far north of Thila, well away from main Thilan settlements were wiped out quickly. The tapirs, camels, bison and for a short time the Thilan elephants survived.
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Thilan Lover
Member, 10 posts

I think you guys are wrong about the bison my best friends uncle raises them and they seem pretty tame.
Why couldn't the elephants be domesticated?
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Whitewand
Member 1000 posts

The large elephants were too slow of breeders. With habitat lose and being hunted by two types of hominids their days were numbered.
The pygmy elephants barely made it. For a while they were confined to a small stretch of coastline on the Pacific. If they hadn't been fairly fast breeders, relatively speaking, they would have gone the same way.
I'll say it again Thilans are lucky to have as many domesticates as we do.

 

[Errnge]

There are, especially in the northern boreal forests and Amazonia, but these tend to be rather backward areas.

neanderthals were specifically adapted to cold environs. they never would have survived in a tropical area, especially a rainforest.

 

[Valdemar II]

neanderthals were specifically adapted to cold environs. they never would have survived in a tropical area, especially a rainforest.

We were adapted to tropical savanna, we still spread. With no competition I could easily see Neanderthals spread to tropical environment. But we are going to see some radical adaptions, especially because in TTL the Neanderthal have enough time to adapt to such environment. Tropical Neanderthals are going to be darker, less robust and have less fat to deal with the sun and heat. They can likely grow higher, thinner and maybe somewhat graceful as a way to dump heat. Of course we could also see some Neanderthals become pygmies, especially in the Caribbian and in the Amazon, in fact in the Amazon that's the most likely way, even the local Indian groups began to move that way in OTL.

 

[Errnge]

We were adapted to tropical savanna, we still spread. With no competition I could easily see Neanderthals spread to tropical environment. But we are going to see some radical adaptions, especially because in TTL the Neanderthal have enough time to adapt to such environment. Tropical Neanderthals are going to be darker, less robust and have less fat to deal with the sun and heat. They can likely grow higher, thinner and maybe somewhat graceful as a way to dump heat.

true, but to get warm you just have to put on more clothes. if you run out of clothes to take off, you aren't getting any cooler.

also, there is an issue with bone structure. unlike skin, hair, and even blood, bones and their structure and shape do not change that quickly. a neanderthal's bone structure as well as other adaptations are specific for the cold. it would take far longer for neanderthals to adapt enough for their bones to change shape, and by then they would be a separate species.

if you look at our species, there is virtually no difference in the bone structure between me (n. european) and someone from say the congo. in skin, facial structure, blood, hair, damn near everything but skeletal structure, there is difference (well, there is also organ systems, basic musculature, things that make us human, but you know what i am saying).

even if neanderthals got darker, leaner, taller, and had more adaptations that should suit them well for the tropics, you still have a lack of waist and outward ribs that retain heat. you still have a relatively stocky build. you still have a giant nasal cavity. you still have thicker bones than our own.

also, as mentioned earlier, with such a small gene pool they would have weaker immune systems. and the tropics are renowned for the diseases floating and festering around in there.

i'm not trying to be that guy but i think you should keep your neanderthals from going any further south than the rockies.

 

[Berserker]

i'm not trying to be that guy but i think you should keep your neanderthals from going any further south than the rockies.

agreed

I think a logical solution is that the neanderthals will trive in OTL Canada and northern USA, but south of that line, humans may quickley out-breed them.

on the other hand: can you think of a way to prevent humans from entering northen lands?
iff the Neanderthals are strong enough, they could resist most human intrusions

 

[Cryptic]

on the other hand: can you think of a way to prevent humans from entering northen lands?
iff the Neanderthals are strong enough, they could resist most human intrusions

Maybe lack of interest? Humans (Inuit) bypassed the high arctic until relatively recently. Even the northeren boreal forests had a very low indigenous human population density.

Inhospital climate combined with hsotile Neandertals could well keep humans out. This is especially so with far mroe hospitable climates that were easily accessible and open to settlement.

 

[Domoviye]

true, but to get warm you just have to put on more clothes. if you run out of clothes to take off, you aren't getting any cooler.

also, there is an issue with bone structure. unlike skin, hair, and even blood, bones and their structure and shape do not change that quickly. a neanderthal's bone structure as well as other adaptations are specific for the cold. it would take far longer for neanderthals to adapt enough for their bones to change shape, and by then they would be a separate species.

if you look at our species, there is virtually no difference in the bone structure between me (n. european) and someone from say the congo. in skin, facial structure, blood, hair, damn near everything but skeletal structure, there is difference (well, there is also organ systems, basic musculature, things that make us human, but you know what i am saying).

even if neanderthals got darker, leaner, taller, and had more adaptations that should suit them well for the tropics, you still have a lack of waist and outward ribs that retain heat. you still have a relatively stocky build. you still have a giant nasal cavity. you still have thicker bones than our own.

also, as mentioned earlier, with such a small gene pool they would have weaker immune systems. and the tropics are renowned for the diseases floating and festering around in there.

i'm not trying to be that guy but i think you should keep your neanderthals from going any further south than the rockies.

I thought long and hard about how far Neanderthals would spread, I do believe they could have adapted given enough time. I did state it took 30,000 years to get there, so it wasn't an overnight thing.
And there are differences in bone structure amongst human races. Nothing too drastic, but the skulls of Caucasians are thicker and bulkier than the skulls of Asians. Native Australians have teeth and jaws that are much larger than other races. But you're right in that most changes will be in the flesh and not the bones.
However you are wrong about the nasal cavity. The nose is much larger than humans, but this seems to be a genetic fluke not essential. The nasal cavity is proportionally comparable to a humans. It only seems a lot larger because they're heads are larger. Recent research says that neither of these were as important as people previously thought. I'll find the articles later today and post a link.
As for disease, they're going into a virgin jungle, there will be some parasites that affect them, but no diseases at first. The jungles of South and Central America are full of diseases, but they're African and Asian diseases, there are only a few fully South American diseases to worry about.
So neanderthals won't find it easy at first, but jungles I think are capable of being inhabited. The Neanderthals will spend a lot of their time near water to help deal with heat (death valley and a lot of the hot deserts are uninhabitable to them due to heat and lack of water). They will also spend a lot of time resting. Some scientists think their metabolism was lower than humans to help deal with long winters of inactivity. When they're active they need a lot of food, develop a lot of heat and can show off how strong they are. So in the hotter areas they spend much of their time relaxing when not hunting or gathering. A perfect couch potato life.
Physically they'll be shorter and thinner than Northern Neanderthals. They'll have more sweat glands, a slower metabolism, and a higher heat tolerance. After 20,000 years I think this is acceptable.

Also with the way Neanderthals preferred forests to plains, the jungle would be quite nice aside from the heat.

We were adapted to tropical savanna, we still spread. With no competition I could easily see Neanderthals spread to tropical environment. But we are going to see some radical adaptions, especially because in TTL the Neanderthal have enough time to adapt to such environment. Tropical Neanderthals are going to be darker, less robust and have less fat to deal with the sun and heat. They can likely grow higher, thinner and maybe somewhat graceful as a way to dump heat. Of course we could also see some Neanderthals become pygmies, especially in the Caribbian and in the Amazon, in fact in the Amazon that's the most likely way, even the local Indian groups began to move that way in OTL.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

 

[Domoviye]

agreed

I think a logical solution is that the neanderthals will trive in OTL Canada and northern USA, but south of that line, humans may quickley out-breed them.

on the other hand: can you think of a way to prevent humans from entering northen lands?
iff the Neanderthals are strong enough, they could resist most human intrusions

I halfways agree with you. In much of North America Neanderthals will do well, and in the North up to the treeline they dominate. Between Maine and North Carolina, humans and neanderthals will do about equally. Humans are faster breeders, but Neanderthals have the home turf advantage.
Below that Neanderthals survive, but humans are dominate as they are better adapted to heat. Especially in the prairies and deserts Neanderthals stick to the rivers leaving most of the land to the crazy humans. But in the deep forests and mountains of the south the Neanderthals survive.
The Neanderthals control much of the Andes, and do ok in the southern parts of South America. Along the coast and plains of South America however humans tend to outcompete them. The deep jungles are ignored by most humans at first due to the harsh terrain.

Maybe lack of interest? Humans (Inuit) bypassed the high arctic until relatively recently. Even the northeren boreal forests had a very low indigenous human population density.

Inhospital climate combined with hsotile Neandertals could well keep humans out. This is especially so with far mroe hospitable climates that were easily accessible and open to settlement.

Yep. The boreal forest has never been really human friendly (I know I've lived there). But it seems it would be great terrain for Neanderthals. So while humans will live in some parts of it, they'll leave most of it to the Neanderthals.
Just like Neanderthals will leave much of the prairies and deserts to the humans who can survive the heat better, and enjoy walking long distances. The Neanderthals will skirt the edges and occasionally walk through the hot dry places, but they won't like it.
To get past the deserts in Texas they walked and rafted along the coastline setting up bands and tribes in the coastal swamps and wetlands. The actual dry and arid bits were marked off as 'here be dragons'.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

also as an aside, it has been shown that neaderthals were as much gathers as hunters (like early man), and that the diets of the two were similar (when habiting similar habitats).

 

[Domoviye]

also as an aside, it has been shown that neaderthals were as much gathers as hunters (like early man), and that the diets of the two were similar (when habiting similar habitats).

I don't think I've seen that one. Most studies show they ate more meat then wolves. Maybe being in close contact with humans introduced a more varied diet to them. That would add to the hybridization argument.

 

[Bavarian Raven]

I don't think I've seen that one. Most studies show they ate more meat then wolves. Maybe being in close contact with humans introduced a more varied diet to them. That would add to the hybridization argument.

i agree with the hybridization argument,
the diet argument came from a recent study from europe where when excavating a neanderthal site which contained stores of grain and the such.


also, as an aside, "vinland", does contain natural iron deposits that by the time of this TL, i am sure would have been found. considering how valuable iron would be.

 

[Domoviye]

i agree with the hybridization argument,
the diet argument came from a recent study from europe where when excavating a neanderthal site which contained stores of grain and the such.


also, as an aside, "vinland", does contain natural iron deposits that by the time of this TL, i am sure would have been found. considering how valuable iron would be.

True enough, and they did start to use their native iron. But getting ready made iron with a lot less impurities was cheaper for them at first.
There are also some factors against easy discovery of ironwork simply by seeing the finished product.
The Norse were very hush hush about where and how iron was made. Until they saw the Skrealings using their own native iron they would sell iron products but never iron alone. This forced the Skrealings to do a lot of experimenting.
For the first 40 years or so there was only about one ship every two to three years, the journey was similar in scale to the spice ships of England going to Asia in the 15th and 16th century. It happened but it wasn't common or easy. After that it sped up a little but it was still only 1 or 2 ships a year. This kept iron rare and closely guarded by the ruling elites at first.
Even after they developed their own iron it wasn't high quality. The iron was basic bog iron, which was useful but fairly weak, best for pots, pans, basic nails and things like that. The Norse sold them higher quality iron which is better for weapons and tools.

So after 40 years they did have basic iron smithy's, but it was still in its infancy. They simply preferred the higher quality iron they could get from Europe. after 150 years the native iron works was at the same level as Europe.

 

[Shevek23]

Oh yay!

A new Neanderthal timeline, just when all the timelines I have been following seem to have gone on hiatus!

I'd have argued against them persisting in the Amazon (Excuse me, Summer Forest!) myself but you've parried that thrust pretty well. If they like forests so much better, more power to them*. I see you already did the other thing and had them take over the highlands; I think they are pretty well pre-adapted to start deeper adaptions to high-altitude living and the Andes are among the highest highlands on the globe. Down in Patagonia and the Straits area they'd do great compared to us Quickies I'd think.

Ok so now that we've established that there are Neanderthals in the New World, they are there to stay and they've facilitated the domestication of pygmy mammoths, "black camels" (what's that, some variation on llamas/alpacas?) and horses, (and is an Avalonian Duck a turkey?), what about agriculture? Presumably the First Quicks have maize, beans, tomatoes, all that good stuff, maybe not potatoes if the Strongs have displaced all Quicks from the Andean highlands (but then again the Strongs may well be farmers themselves and the potato may have been domesticated even earlier than OTL).

Another fun possibility is that in addition to the enhanced Western Hemisphere agricultural/domesticate kit we've seen thus far, the Strongs also have over time located and begun cultivating strictly Arctic or at any rate far subarctic and alpine plants and animals our species never got desperate or interested enough to look into. One would think the Inuit (who I presume are totally displaced this timeline, or anyway confined to their native Siberia) would have scoured the ground for all possible Arctic domesticates and finding none developed their extreme Arctic hunter/gatherer society instead, but it often happens that gatherer/hunters fail to show any interest in agriculture. I'm thinking more that Strongs living on the southern edge of their settlement zone interact with Quicks who introduce farming, some Strongs take the idea north over hundreds and thousands of years, and eventually up there some of them notice that something local that does better than anything southern and that Strongs like to eat well enough can be cultivated. And they are off to the races. It's easy to see this working with animals, plants are more of a challenge.

As it happens DValdron has been fobbing off my tearful pleas for him to post something to either Green Antarctica or Axis of Andes, and he directed me to go read "All About My Brother," Subversivepanda's Taiping timeline. And I have, and in it toward the end DValdron was talking about weird berries that can be grown in extreme northern places like Svalbard. Presumably these are Old World flora, though for one thing such plants (and animals) often turn up in both hemispheres--apparently hominids are not the only critters to venture either the Bering land bridge or in some cases flying or rafting across the North Atlantic. And birds bring seeds with them. So those berries could have versions in the Thilean northlands, or there might be yet other things not found in Eurasia.

If the Strong Thileans can develop crops that grow in the Arctic, then that has huge consequences for downtime civilization in all Arctic lands and in various highlands around the world too.

In fact, another long-dead thread I had hopes for was the Warm Arctic threads. Now, here we have the Arctic just as ice-bound and nasty cold as OTL, but we have a subspecies of human who doesn't mind that. If mere Quicks like ourselves can't hack it well in the far northlands, the Strongs can, especially if they can grow crops there! We can have my Boreal civilizations yet, it's just that our subspecies will be guests there--probably often quite uncomfortable ones.

I'm thinking that sometime after the era you start in, Thilean Strongs (it isn't clear to me why, if Thile is the name of the whole North American continent, Thile's Quicks are not also Thileans) migrate into Siberia and wind up confronting Mongols and Russians and other OTL northern Eurasian powers, and sometimes winning. Anyway if anyone can manage to operate ships (maybe small ones that can portage over thick sea ice on skis?) in the Arctic Ocean it would be Strongs, especially Strongs exposed to Nordic seafaring arts.

You've already surprised me, I look forward to more of the same!
----
*I'm slow. It took me a moment to realize--what you are saying re Neanderthals in the Amazon is,

"In the jungle, the Strongs survive..."

 

[Domoviye]

A new Neanderthal timeline, just when all the timelines I have been following seem to have gone on hiatus!

I'm having that problem as well.

I'd have argued against them persisting in the Amazon (Excuse me, Summer Forest!) myself but you've parried that thrust pretty well. If they like forests so much better, more power to them*. I see you already did the other thing and had them take over the highlands; I think they are pretty well pre-adapted to start deeper adaptions to high-altitude living and the Andes are among the highest highlands on the globe. Down in Patagonia and the Straits area they'd do great compared to us Quickies I'd think.

Summer Lands, not forest. Its named after the British legends of King Author and Avalon. the Summer Lands were where the Fae lived in eternal summer, and Avalon resided there as well. Considering the hot weather of the Amazon it seemed an appropriate name.
And you're thinking along the same lines I am. Humans and Neanderthals reach South America almost at the same time. The Neanderthals beat them by about 2000 years the Neanderthals headed up the Andes almost immediately, and when they hit the cooler south expanded rapidly. Which kept humans there to a minority in those areas.
When humans got there they headed to different areas and sometimes fought with the Neanderthals, especially for choice bits of the Amazonian Plateau. The slightly late humans pushed along the coasts and hot jungles. The Amazonian Neanderthals got pushed into the deepest parts of the Amazon by the humans. So the humans got the choice spots in the Amazon basin and the Neanderthals got stuck in the worst areas.

Ok so now that we've established that there are Neanderthals in the New World, they are there to stay and they've facilitated the domestication of pygmy mammoths, "black camels" (what's that, some variation on llamas/alpacas?) and horses, (and is an Avalonian Duck a turkey?), what about agriculture? Presumably the First Quicks have maize, beans, tomatoes, all that good stuff, maybe not potatoes if the Strongs have displaced all Quicks from the Andean highlands (but then again the Strongs may well be farmers themselves and the potato may have been domesticated even earlier than OTL).

The domestication was a little vague, sorry my wife was bugging me for the computer.
Black Camels are the North American camel, they thrived in the deserts and hills of the Southwest and had just enough contact with Neanderthals to realize homonids were dangerous. They have one hump, and are blackish in colour.
The Avalon duck is the Muscovy duck of OTL.
The turkey is still around. Just have to come up with a good name for it. The common duck is also domesticated.
The horses are from Patagonia, a lot more on them later.
Llama's and Alpaca's will have the same name as OTL, simply because its easiest.

Another fun possibility is that in addition to the enhanced Western Hemisphere agricultural/domesticate kit we've seen thus far, the Strongs also have over time located and begun cultivating strictly Arctic or at any rate far subarctic and alpine plants and animals our species never got desperate or interested enough to look into. One would think the Inuit (who I presume are totally displaced this timeline, or anyway confined to their native Siberia) would have scoured the ground for all possible Arctic domesticates and finding none developed their extreme Arctic hunter/gatherer society instead, but it often happens that gatherer/hunters fail to show any interest in agriculture. I'm thinking more that Strongs living on the southern edge of their settlement zone interact with Quicks who introduce farming, some Strongs take the idea north over hundreds and thousands of years, and eventually up there some of them notice that something local that does better than anything southern and that Strongs like to eat well enough can be cultivated. And they are off to the races. It's easy to see this working with animals, plants are more of a challenge.

Agriculture will be brought up soon.
There are differences, especially in the north. There aren't a lot of northern plants that are good for domestication but there are some and they'll be domesticated later. Also some more southerly plants will be bred to survive the short Northern summers. Don't expect a Northern agricultural complex, but it will add some variety.
The Neanderthals aren't particularly big farmers. They'll go in more for meat and fish. But they understand why having a fall back food is useful.

As it happens DValdron has been fobbing off my tearful pleas for him to post something to either Green Antarctica or Axis of Andes, and he directed me to go read "All About My Brother," Subversivepanda's Taiping timeline. And I have, and in it toward the end DValdron was talking about weird berries that can be grown in extreme northern places like Svalbard. Presumably these are Old World flora, though for one thing such plants (and animals) often turn up in both hemispheres--apparently hominids are not the only critters to venture either the Bering land bridge or in some cases flying or rafting across the North Atlantic. And birds bring seeds with them. So those berries could have versions in the Thilean northlands, or there might be yet other things not found in Eurasia.

If the Strong Thileans can develop crops that grow in the Arctic, then that has huge consequences for downtime civilization in all Arctic lands and in various highlands around the world too.

In fact, another long-dead thread I had hopes for was the Warm Arctic threads. Now, here we have the Arctic just as ice-bound and nasty cold as OTL, but we have a subspecies of human who doesn't mind that. If mere Quicks like ourselves can't hack it well in the far northlands, the Strongs can, especially if they can grow crops there! We can have my Boreal civilizations yet, it's just that our subspecies will be guests there--probably often quite uncomfortable ones.

See above about plants.
The Inuit or some relatives of them will be in the farthest North. Neanderthals are more forest people. So most will avoid the barren icy coasts except as a last resort. The areas at the treeline however will be where the action is.
And once worldwide travel becomes common, Neanderthals could very likely move to different Northern territories as immigrants, migrant workers and slaves.

I'm thinking that sometime after the era you start in, Thilean Strongs (it isn't clear to me why, if Thile is the name of the whole North American continent, Thile's Quicks are not also Thileans) migrate into Siberia and wind up confronting Mongols and Russians and other OTL northern Eurasian powers, and sometimes winning. Anyway if anyone can manage to operate ships (maybe small ones that can portage over thick sea ice on skis?) in the Arctic Ocean it would be Strongs, especially Strongs exposed to Nordic seafaring arts.

Quick people is only used in a few places, consider it local slang.
The reason for the different names was ease of writing. Calling the two Thilan ____ would become annoying for me.
So the in world reason is that people realized the Thilans were very different and needed a special name for them, and eventually something better than troll, ape, frogs (due to lack of a chin) and similar insults came about. Since the Thilans were first seen on Thila and Australis they eventually became the Thilans. To differentiate them from the regular Thila humans, the humans got called Skrealings.
Its not a perfect fix, and certain people ITTL try to change it to more linguistically correct, but the majority keep it up.

You've already surprised me, I look forward to more of the same!
----
*I'm slow. It took me a moment to realize--what you are saying re Neanderthals in the Amazon is,

"In the jungle, the Strongs survive..."

Thank you very much. I hope you like what I have in store.
And thanks to everyone else who's read this and enjoyed it.

 

[Berserker]

I halfways agree with you. In much of North America Neanderthals will do well, and in the North up to the treeline they dominate. Between Maine and North Carolina, humans and neanderthals will do about equally. Humans are faster breeders, but Neanderthals have the home turf advantage.
Below that Neanderthals survive, but humans are dominate as they are better adapted to heat. Especially in the prairies and deserts Neanderthals stick to the rivers leaving most of the land to the crazy humans. But in the deep forests and mountains of the south the Neanderthals survive.
The Neanderthals control much of the Andes, and do ok in the southern parts of South America. Along the coast and plains of South America however humans tend to outcompete them. The deep jungles are ignored by most humans at first due to the harsh terrain.

aahhh, okey
this gives me a greater perspective of things
hopefully, we can hear something about their culture soon

 

[Domoviye]

1464, Venice


Bishop Barbo looked at the strange slave before him. A creature from the southern continent of the New Lands, it wore ill fitting clothes of a slave. There had been a few in Italy, most of them died of illness before long. This was the first time he had looked upon one in the flesh. It was a most disturbing creature.

“Can it talk?” he asked the Italian interpreter.

“Yes, in a manner of speaking your Excellency. They talk with their hands and some talking, but not like any human,” said the strong and well dressed interpreter and slave trainer.

“Ask it if it knows of God?” Bishop Barbo said.

The interpreter shook the creatures chain to get its attention. With a series of gestures and some high pitched shrieks the two presumably communicated to each other. Finally the interpreter said, “It says there is no God, your Excellency.”

It was the answer he had expected, the creature was unlikely to be a child of God. “What spirits does the creature believe in?”

More shrieking, “It says there are no spirits or gods, your bishop.”

“So how does the sun rise each day?”

The interpreter took his time talking to the creature, to Bishop Barbo's trained eye both the translator and the creature looked confused. Finally the translator turned back to the Bishop. “Your Excellency, the creature says he doesn't know why the sun rises or sets, it just does. There are no spirits or gods doing it.”

“Then why do we exist? Who or what created the first animals?”

This time the translator was much faster. “It says that we have always existed, and nothing created him.”

“What happens when it dies?” the Bishop asked genuinely curious.

“It says that its like sleeping forever, no cares, no worries, no happiness, nothing,” the interpreter said with a shudder.

'Does the creature wonder why we are alive?”

The interpreter spoke to the creature for a long time, the creature only responding with short squeals and hand gestures. “It says that it never worried about it, none of his kind wonder about it. What is, is, what isn't, isn't.”

Bishop Barbo thought carefully, this creature was most disturbing. Was it truly the kin of Cain as some people said. He pointed at at a bouquet of flowers by the window that helped to cut the smell of the outside. “What does the creature think of those flowers?”

He waited several minutes at what was apparently a deep discussion, this time the creature seemed to be adding something more to the discussion. 'The creature says the flowers are pleasant. The smell is pleasant, and the colours remind it of its home. It particularly likes the pink roses, which reminds him of the colour of a fish it enjoys eating.”

The bishop thought over the response very carefully. So the creature didn't seem to think in higher spiritual thoughts. It could relate items to unrelated thoughts, but only in simple terms. Was that simply because this one was slow of thought, or was it the species as a whole.

“You may take the creature away for now, but I'll be wanting to speak to it again as well as the other creatures you have later. Make sure they are kept healthy,” he told the interpreter.

“Yes of course your Excellency, I am of course your servant.”

After the creature and the interpreter had left Bishop Barbo sat in his chair deep in thought. The creature before him was obviously capable of some thought, but not to the same level as a human. Pope John Paul III would be most interested in hearing of this. Since they appeared to be incapable of understanding God, and they were not necessarily human, they could be enslaved without worry, unlike the unfortunate habit of enslaving good Christians.

That could be the very reason God placed the creatures in the world. He began writing a letter for the Pope.

 

[Domoviye]

The Thilan's are very literal minded. Few of them will work on a hunch, and abstract thought while possible is harder for them than humans. While they can lie, they're less likely to do so than a human.
This means humans are more creative then they are, but they have their own insights into how things work and can throw people a curve ball on occasion.
I was going to post a bit about a Neanderthal village, but its late and things came up. So you'll get that tomorrow.
Hope you guys like it.
Cheers

 

[Berserker]

The Thilan's are very literal minded. Few of them will work on a hunch, and abstract thought while possible is simpler for them than humans. While they can lie, they're less likely to do so than a human.
This means humans are more creative then they are, but they have their own insights into how things work and can throw people a curve ball on occasion.
I was going to post a bit about a Neanderthal village, but its late and things came up. So you'll get that tomorrow.
Hope you guys like it.
Cheers

well, you certainly got me interested

like the dialogue