Neanderthals in the America's

Summer, 1234, City of Sem capital of the Sem'He-Too Coalition (Location OTL Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada)


The port bustled with the sound of commerce, boats setting sail and docking, arguing, shrieking birds and beasts of burden. The cool sea breeze was heavily laden with salt, which helped to blow some of the stench of rotting fish, unwashed bodies and raw sewage away from the docks. Unni watched the Cold people, one of the two people that inhabited the land as they worked at unloading the tons of iron that filled the hold of his cog. Their high pitched cries sounded like women shrieking in fright, and made the Norseman want to wince in pain.

Of course he wouldn't let the labourers know of his discomfort. The nearly naked Cold men were almost casually lifting the boxes of iron ingots two at a time. In Sweden, the labourers had handled a single box in pairs. But a look at their faces proved they were no ordinary men. They were as white as a Norseman, but their stout bodies were built like a barrel, with arms as large around as most peoples legs. The faces were the strangest, the large nose, heavy brow and a chin like a frog, in all of his travels Unni had never seen a people more ugly. But by God they were strong.

A fat figure waved at him through the crowd. Unni put a scowl on his face, mostly for show and strode towards the trader.

“T'uhst!” he bellowed in the local trade language. “Where is the elephant wool and ivory that was suppose to be waiting for me? Do you expect me to wait at this fly infested harbour when I could be sailing back home?”

The fat man calmly smoothed his straight black hair. “Trader Unni, there was a delay. Please be patient my colleague is bringing the wagons here now. You're ship is still being unloaded so their is no reason to worry about this minor delay. Please join me for a drink, maybe some women as well?” the trader said, a smile turning his usual dour expression friendly.

“Fine, I've waited here two days waiting for you a drink is necessary. But none of those Cold women, I want a normal girl,” he said, glaring at the mans tan coloured face.
“Of course. The Cold women have some redeeming features, but like you I prefer a woman who can't break my arm,” he replied. “The best establishment is quite far, We'll go by wagon.”

T'usht weaved his way through the crowd waving his ornate traders cane to help clear a path. The labourers, passerby's and lesser traders made way for him grudgingly with much cursing, when they saw the large, heavily bearded Norseman they hastily stepped aside. Neither the Cold People or the Quick People had much facial hair. Seeing the thick red mane was quite shocking for most of them.

The wagon was waiting for them at the High Street. It was fairly ornate, made out of ornately carved wood with silver and copper inlay depicting snarling animals. Wooden pegs kept it together, with some copper nails at key places. Two hairy elephants, the size of large cows were harnessed to it.

A teenager, a Quick Person like T'usht, placed a stool at the back of the wagon to help the two men up. They sat on plain wooden benches while the young man clambered up into the drivers seat. With a flick of a whip that elicited a loud trumpet of protest from one of the hairy elephants, the wagon started moving with a lurch.

The High Street was virtually deserted compared to the docks. The High Street went through the heart of the city and only people with status could use it. The poorer classes could cross it at certain points, but any poor person caught walking without an escort was going to be beaten. Well armed Cold people along with some Quick people patrolled the street looking quite menacing in black leather armour and bronze spears.

“Unni my friend I have some interesting news for you,” T'usht said.

The Norseman looked at him questioningly.

“A strange ship was in port last month. They had a Hairy person like yourself as a slave who could speak Sem,” he said.

Unni's eyes went wide, “Where did they come from?”

“They said a name that sounded like Olans, Orlens. Something like that,” the trader said.

“Orleans,” Unni said, his hands tightened into fists.

“That was it,” he said smiling. “They had quite a lot of weapons, wine and glass for trading.”

Trying to control his voice Unni asked, “Did they have much luck?”

“Oh yes. They were quite happy to trade for our elephant wool, ivory and fur. There was little of the brawling and complaining that most traders get up to,” T'usht said blandly.

Unni didn't respond to the thinly veiled insult. The Norsemen had controlled the trade between Europe and Vestrland for the last hundred years. The people had needed iron, glass, linen, and many other things so badly they had offered vast riches. The Norse had used their stranglehold on the supply to the fullest advantage. If the trader was telling the truth that monopoly was about to end.

As the trader spoke on about inconsequential things, the Norseman planned. Orleans and its allies would have to pay for this transgression.
 
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This thread is all about Neanderthals who managed to make it to America about 40k years ago, but died out pretty much as normal in Europe and Asia.
A butterfly net is in place around the America's, but by 1200 that net disappeared.
I've had some bad luck with timelines and such before, but I will stick to this one, because most of the big posts will be focusing on the reaction of the world to this TTL's America, with a few posts explaining the ancient history.
I think I'll be avoiding ASB territory for the most part. If anyone sees something they think is too ASB let me know, I may agree with you and change it.
 
This thread is all about Neanderthals who managed to make it to America about 40k years ago, but died out pretty much as normal in Europe and Asia.
A butterfly net is in place around the America's, but by 1200 that net disappeared.
I've had some bad luck with timelines and such before, but I will stick to this one, because most of the big posts will be focusing on the reaction of the world to this TTL's America, with a few posts explaining the ancient history.
I think I'll be avoiding ASB territory for the most part. If anyone sees something they think is too ASB let me know, I may agree with you and change it.

try Errnge's 'A Different Man' TL, in the ASB section.
 
Neanderthals died because of the Ice Age, they didn't manage to adapt to the new climate.

That makes no sense, because frankly, they were living in much cooler climate all along, and actually developed in much cooler areas. Consider that the southernmost areas where remains of Neanderthals have been found are Israel and Iraq.
 

Arrix85

Donor
anyway I checked. there are different theories about Neanderthal extinction "Theories on the fate of the Neanderthals include an inability to cope with climate change, competitive exclusion or even genocide by anatomically modern humans , and hybridization, effectively being absorbed into the cro-magnon population".

I was wrong about the Ice Age, but maybe not about climate change.
 
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Sandmannius

Banned
Nice beginning, I really liked it. So there is full on trade between Europe and the Americas in the 13th century, monopolized by Norsemen, the Neanderthals did not get wiped out and I'm assuming some OTL extinct megafauna did not either. Sweet. :cool:

What did get me a little bit confused was I thought you used the term "Quickpeople" for Native Americans, as you said Quickpeople did not have much facial hair and they were in awe of Unni the Norseman's beard. Then you say that Unni is one of the Quickpeople. :confused:
 
try Errnge's 'A Different Man' TL, in the ASB section.
Read it and commented on it. This TL is going to be much different. The Neanderthals are a little different (within logical boundaries), a lot more butterflies, and there are no native neanderthals in Europe.

anyway I checked. there are different theories about Neanderthal extinction "Theories on the fate of the Neanderthals include an inability to cope with climate change, competitive exclusion or even genocide by anatomically modern humans , and hybridization, effectively being absorbed into the cro-magnon population".

I was wrong about the Ice Age, but maybe not about climate change.
I think it was a mix of all of this that killed them off, although only a minimum of actual human genocide. This TL just gives some of the Neanderthals a fallback position for about 28k years before they run into people again.

The migrations of Humans 12.000 years ago into America have been butterflied away?
Nope it still happened. The Quick people are Native Americans. The Neanderthals were just too widespread by that point for the humans to out compete easily.

can you give some more background information: I was kinda confused when I read it the first time:D
Lots more coming. This was just to get the ball rolling by showing a dynamic bronze age society in North America. As well as proving that the butterflies do exist.

Nice beginning, I really liked it. So there is full on trade between Europe and the Americas in the 13th century, monopolized by Norsemen, the Neanderthals did not get wiped out and I'm assuming some OTL extinct megafauna did not either. Sweet. :cool:

What did get me a little bit confused was I thought you used the term "Quickpeople" for Native Americans, as you said Quickpeople did not have much facial hair and they were in awe of Unni the Norseman's beard. Then you say that Unni is one of the Quickpeople. :confused:
Glad you like it. Most of the megafauna did die off, but some does exist. With the Neanderthals getting to North America about 40k years ago in an extremely small band, the megafauna wasn't quite as surprised as OTL. So a few of the faster breeding ones still exist.
I changed the confusing line. I had meant for it to show that they were both human, it was clearer in my head. But Unni is a Norseman, and the Quick people is the local name for humans in that part of North America. The Neanderthals will get an official common name in the next post.
 
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The Neanderthals didn't die out in this TL, a small clan of them reached North America and flourished.

ah, fellow neanderthal-phile :)

curious, though, how did they make it to the americas? the easternmost expansion of neanderthals was afghanistan.

and IIRC, the bearing land bridge was iced over for long periods of time on and off. this does not make your POD an impossibility, it just makes me beg for more specificity (says the hypocrite :rolleyes:)
 
oh, and the vikings called the inuits/native americans skraelings, which i believe meant something to the affect of "short ugly people". not very nice, but... perhaps this could be a name for neanderthals or another name for the natives.

also, would you mind putting spaces between your paragraphs. it makes it a lot easier to read.
 
oh, and the vikings called the inuits/native americans skraelings, which i believe meant something to the affect of "short ugly people". not very nice, but... perhaps this could be a name for neanderthals or another name for the natives.

also, would you mind putting spaces between your paragraphs. it makes it a lot easier to read.

Skrealing could mean different things: some people believe it mean : barbarian or foreigner.
others believed it meant something like: thin people.

I would use Skraelings for the native americans and create a other name for the neanderthals
 
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Social History of the Strong Man
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Homo Durus, the Thilan* stands counter to Homo Sapiens. Less capable of logical processes as compared to humans, but capable of building civilization. Masters of musical skills well beyond regular humans, yet lacking almost any spirituality. Living for the season and only somewhat aware of the future, yet capable of remembering the past with near perfect clarity.

These remarkable people originated in Europe, yet somehow they arrived in Thila** over 40,000 years ago. How they made it across the Atlantic is unknown, theories range from the realistic, such as rafting on crude boats along the ice and islands of the North Atlantic and living off of seals, to the foolish creating reed boats and sailing non-stop from Gibraltar to the Central Islands***, and finally the absurd saying that the Homo Durus are one of the lost tribes of Israel.

However the thilan made it to Thila and subsequently to Australis****, only a few survived the journey. Genetic research has shown that as few as 10 to a maximum of 30 arrived on the continent. From this small population of slow breeding hominids it took over 30,000 years to spread from their first known settlement in Shon Huk Peninsula+ to the tip of Australis, forming several distinct races during the long migration.

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It is a necessary addition to anyone human or thilan interested in the newest theories of anthropology and history.


*Most common name for Neanderthals ITTL.
** North America, variation of the name Thule.
***Caribbean Islands
**** South America
+ Long Island, after 3 thousand years of small towns followed by a large city the East River doesn't exist anymore.
 
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oh, and the vikings called the inuits/native americans skraelings, which i believe meant something to the affect of "short ugly people". not very nice, but... perhaps this could be a name for neanderthals or another name for the natives.

also, would you mind putting spaces between your paragraphs. it makes it a lot easier to read.

Skrealing could mean different things: some people believe it mean : barbarian or foreigner.
others believed it meant something like: thin people.

I would use Skraelings for the native americans and create a other name for the neanderthals
Skrealings is tempting, and I may call the humans of Thila that, but for now they're just humans.

For how they got to N. America I'm going with a large Neanderthal band in Northern Britain started using simple rafts for fishing. When the glaciers started to encroach in 40K they were cut off by ice and snow. So they took their chances island hopping and following the ice, eating seals and fish in primitive rafts. Eventually they made it to North America. If they'd gone the other way they'd have ended up in Europe and possibly changed history there.
Its on the extremely lucky side of chance, but possible as at that time another full blown ice age was just beginning, so sea levels would have decreased and there would be a lot of pack ice to rest on.
 
Skrealings is tempting, and I may call the humans of Thila that, but for now they're just humans.

For how they got to N. America I'm going with a large Neanderthal band in Northern Britain started using simple rafts for fishing. When the glaciers started to encroach in 40K they were cut off by ice and snow. So they took their chances island hopping and following the ice, eating seals and fish in primitive rafts. Eventually they made it to North America. If they'd gone the other way they'd have ended up in Europe and possibly changed history there.
Its on the extremely lucky side of chance, but possible as at that time another full blown ice age was just beginning, so sea levels would have decreased and there would be a lot of pack ice to rest on.

I certainly could be possible.

I am wondering about the co-existance between Neanderthals and humans.
are their anny regions that have a "Neanderthal only" population??
 
I certainly could be possible.

I am wondering about the co-existance between Neanderthals and humans.
are their anny regions that have a "Neanderthal only" population??
There are, especially in the northern boreal forests and Amazonia, but these tend to be rather backward areas.
There are also areas where there are only humans, such as some countries in the central prairies and deserts of North America. These areas are better suited to the long walking endurance of humans, whereas the clumsier, slower and lesser endurance of Neanderthals is at a disadvantage.
At various points in history there have been genocidal wars, pogroms and the like against both species, but the general inclination has been co-operation with one side or the other on top and the other race barely tolerated, a second class citizen or only slightly inferior.
 
I think 10 to 30 neanderthals could be too less. There are experts on the board who can explain about required genetic variety, though. Considering the extinction of Neanderthals: Yesterday I saw a television show featuring a biological anthropologist who stated that the reason for their extinction was that Neanderthals were predominantly meat-eaters, hence hunters, whereas Cro Magnon was Hunter-gatherer, therefore held a more variable diet and thus could provide for a far higher population density. Higher population density in turn decreases the effects of natural disasters, enriches the gene pool and simplifies cultural exchange, making it far easier for Cro Magnon to outcompete Neanderthals. Nevertheless, this outcompeting IMHO likely took the above described form of hybridization and killing and happened at a time of massive climate changes.
 
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