Nazis Invade the UK, 1950

[Shimbo]

Jesus Christ not this shit again!?!

First, let me make it clear for the umpteenth time, flying wings are so aerodynamically unstable that they were untenable as combat aircraft until the invention of computer controlled fly-by-wire systems.

I'm no expert on flying wings, but didn't the Horten Ho 229 actually fly? If so it can't have been that unstable can it? And as it was a bomber isn't its inability to dogfight irrelevant?

Second, German designs will not out class British designs because aircraft design does not occur in a vacuum. Any German combat aircraft operating over Britain will be faced by aircraft and AA defences designed to counter those aircraft and the only people who believe otherwise are the Luftwaffe Fanboys who think the paper designs of a defeated dictatorship run by lunatic fantasists who would grasp at any half assed idea to try and stave off the defeat for another day are inherently superior to those of aircraft designers that don't have to pander to the likes of Goring.

I agree with this. The British would have aircraft that are just as good as the German ones in 1950 IMO. Maybe development of the Hawker Hunter ( which came into service in 1954 in OTL) would be accelerated ITTL. It could catch the Horten. The English Electric Lightning (OTL in service date 1959), which could catch it easily, would also not be far from service.

ITTL RAF Bomber Command may also be operating Vickers Valiants (OTL 1955) Avro Vulcans (OTL 1956) and Handley Page Victors (OTL 1958) so Germany is going to get a pounding.

 

[Landshark]

Shhh. I'm trying to get Landshark to go ballistic again.

You know that doesn't work if you tell people you're trying to get them to do it?

 

[ruisramos]

Political organization of Europe

What is the reality if this TL Europe?
Is Vichy France a reborned state allied with Germany? What about their colonies, what happened to them?
And Iberia? What are the facist regimes of Portugal and Spain doing? And whats the role of Mussoliny's Italy in this world?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Why are the Nazis invading?

Do they have some kind of weapon they think will undercut Britain's advantages (perhaps they've perfected aircraft- or land-launched cruise missiles) or are they desperate for a victory due to the failures of the regime after the war (they've defeated the USSR but Germanic settlement is turning into a disaster or the regime is running out of money)?

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

You know that doesn't work if you tell people you're trying to get them to do it?

That's because I don't really want you to go ballistic. This thread is making me feel concerned for you.

 

[Landshark]

This thread is making me feel concerned for you.

Get a grip on yourself man! You're gay, not a woman damnit!

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Get a grip on yourself man! You're gay, not a woman damnit!

Ok, then: what are you wearing?

 

[Landshark]

I'm no expert on flying wings, but didn't the Horten Ho 229 actually fly? If so it can't have been that unstable can it? And as it was a bomber isn't its inability to dogfight irrelevant?

It did only manage two hours of flying time before it crashed and I doubt it would be put through the same manuveurs as it would in combat.

I agree with this. The British would have aircraft that are just as good as the German ones in 1950 IMO. Maybe development of the Hawker Hunter ( which came into service in 1954 in OTL) would be accelerated ITTL. It could catch the Horten. The English Electric Lightning (OTL in service date 1959), which could catch it easily, would also not be far from service.

Without WW2 I think we'd see a radically different RAF in 1950 than in OTL. Without five years of total war Britain would have more money and less "legacy" aircraft.

By legacy aircraft I mean planes that had been built during the war and for which there were now more of than there were pilots to fly them.

I can see Spitfire production lasting until maybe 1943 or 44 and fewer variants being produced and the design not pushed as far as in OTL. The Spit would probably be supplimented and replaced starting from 1942 by a Hawker product in the same class as the Sea Fury. In turn this would be replaced by jet fighters from about 1946.

ITTL RAF Bomber Command may also be operating Vickers Valiants (OTL 1955) Avro Vulcans (OTL 1956) and Handley Page Victors (OTL 1958) so Germany is going to get a pounding.

I'm not so sure. The Germans would have had time to build up a significant air defence system themselves by 1950.

 

[Landshark]

Ok, then: what are you wearing?

The most hetrosexual outfit imaginable.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

The most hetrosexual outfit imaginable.

A military uniform? Ooooh, hot.

 

[Zyzzyva]

A military uniform? Ooooh, hot.

Yeah, seriously, is there anything you could be wearing that wouldn't provoke that response?

 

[Landshark]

Yeah, seriously, is there anything you could be wearing that wouldn't provoke that response?

A Dallas Cowboys cheerleader uniform?

 

[Chris]

What is the reality if this TL Europe?
Is Vichy France a reborned state allied with Germany? What about their colonies, what happened to them?
And Iberia? What are the facist regimes of Portugal and Spain doing? And whats the role of Mussoliny's Italy in this world?

Vichy France is very much a subordinate state to Germany; basically, it is a vassel state, some of it's people resent this, others just try to get alone. Spain and Portengul are offically nutral. Italy claims to be an equal state to germany, but everyone knows that that will last until Hitler changes his mind, or his sucessor takes office.

France has a nasty little colonial war going on in Algeria. This is not entirely just for the purpose of subduring the arabs.

Why are the Nazis invading?

Do they have some kind of weapon they think will undercut Britain's advantages (perhaps they've perfected aircraft- or land-launched cruise missiles) or are they desperate for a victory due to the failures of the regime after the war (they've defeated the USSR but Germanic settlement is turning into a disaster or the regime is running out of money)?

They're basically acting on a degrading Hitler's orders; i.e. the fuhrur wants to see britain crushed before they can become a new threat. If they have britain, the US can't really get to them. There's no threat of war with the US - yet - but Hitler and co know that it's just a matter of time.

Chris

 

[Mote]

Regarding the Ho-229:
Even presuming that it is flyable, it is still slower than the historical F-86, MiG-15, and FJ Fury. This is of course presuming that the calculations made by the Nazis were in fact correct for speed, which I rather doubt.

 

[Shimbo]

It did only manage two hours of flying time before it crashed and I doubt it would be put through the same manuveurs as it would in combat.

That may well be true.

Without WW2 I think we'd see a radically different RAF in 1950 than in OTL. Without five years of total war Britain would have more money and less "legacy" aircraft.

By legacy aircraft I mean planes that had been built during the war and for which there were now more of than there were pilots to fly them.

I can see Spitfire production lasting until maybe 1943 or 44 and fewer variants being produced and the design not pushed as far as in OTL. The Spit would probably be supplimented and replaced starting from 1942 by a Hawker product in the same class as the Sea Fury. In turn this would be replaced by jet fighters from about 1946.

That sounds reasonable. Hunters and Lightnings vs Hortens and Arados would be cool though.

I'm not so sure. The Germans would have had time to build up a significant air defence system themselves by 1950.

Better than the OTL Soviet Union defences those planes were designed to penetrate? I must admit, I just want to see a thousand V-bomber raid on Berlin.

Also, the RAF would definitely have the English Electric Canberra.

Finally the Fairey Rotodyne would be cool too. A British paratroop division using Rotodynes would be amazingly cool IMO.

 

[CalBear]

I'm no expert on flying wings, but didn't the Horten Ho 229 actually fly? If so it can't have been that unstable can it? And as it was a bomber isn't its inability to dogfight irrelevant?

....

The YB-49 was a jet bomber, modified from the YB-35, a propeller driver bomber. It was okay in level flight on a clear day, but put it in a storm or in roiled air and it was a bucking bronco. That is the biggest issue with most of the "Luftwaffe '46" designs, they either never flew, flew once or twice under extremely controlled conditions in the hands of a test pilot (who by definition is an expert in handling aircraft), or were, in the designed form more dangerous to the pilot than the enemy.

That paper designs would experience serious issues going into actual production is remarkably common. Somehow, the "'46" fans never get that.

 

[Jasen777]

How are the Germans going to be able to overcome the Royal Navy in 1950 which has had 10 extra years to build up and modernise when they couldn't overcome it in 1940?

If the Germans build alot fancy subs during those years perhaps they'll feel like taking a shot at it.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I would have thought that there would have had to be a political settlement for France - from what I've read this would have returned the majority of the occupied zone but carved off Franche-Comte (I don't THINK Goebbels meant the old DUCHY of Burgundy) to be added to the Reich together with Alsace-Lorraine, plus I am not sure what was intended for Artois-Picardie. In addition, of course, there would be German military bases in places like Brest and La Rochelle (not great for the French but the US managed it in several places like the Philippines, so its not as if its an automatic-fail of an option).

If there's no Torch then France retains Algiers. If there's a Gymnast then maybe Britain and the Free French tried to get in there and stir things up

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Landshark]

That sounds reasonable. Hunters and Lightnings vs Hortens and Arados would be cool though.

With the different pressures on defence resources in this ATL we're likely to see completely different aircraft. In OTL the RAF, along with every other major airforce, had hundreds of piston engined fighters, very little money to replace them, (which would in turn lead to design compromises that a more generous budget might eliminate), and Britain was facing a USSR that was in even worse condition.

Here Britain is building to face a foe much closer and much more focused on external aggression, that will colour what gets built for all three services.

Better than the OTL Soviet Union defences those planes were designed to penetrate?

Probably yes. Germany has much less airspace to defend than Russia.

 

[Ed Costello]

Interesting idea for a TL, but I do have two questions - has the Final Solution or an equivalent been enacted in this TL? And does the world have any idea of what is going on in Germany?