Nazis develop/mass produce Wunderwaffes early, not destroyed/captured or War is longer in Nazi Favor

I wonder how much if any of the West Wall was recycled?

for what it's worth the PBS program on West Wall indicated it was the weapons that had been removed.

later in the war they were bemoaning the fact the synthetic fuel plants had not been constructed underground or to the extent practicable, my understanding they were also delayed due to steel constraints so it was not only late war wonder weapons hampered by West Wall but also pre-war fuel program.
 
There are several sources presenting the claims of JG 7 and others listing the loss reports of the USAAF, and some comparing the two; and some of these sources are online. The worst day in terms of accuracy was probably on March 24; JG 7 pilots claimed 10 heavy bombers, the US records show the loss of exactly one. Some other days the claims approached rough parity with the actual losses (where "rough" never means that the German pilots underclaimed; they only overclaimed in a somewhat credible proportion). I've not made any accurate statistics, but it seems that on average the overclaiming was at least in a 2:1 ratio.

Mind you, it's entirely understandable, given the use of a new weapon, the reduced times of this type of engagements, and the obvious desire to believe that they were actually achieving something even in such a desperate last minute, that those poor German pilots deluded themselves.
 
Over claiming was common for fighter pilots of both sides from the beginning of the war to end (and in other wars as well) and it didn't matter if they were on the winning or losing side at the time. Its very difficult to be sure if a plane one shot at was downed or if the plane was able to recover and then limp home, there were other factors as well.
 
Over claiming was common for fighter pilots of both sides from the beginning of the war to end (and in other wars as well) and it didn't matter if they were on the winning or losing side at the time. Its very difficult to be sure if a plane one shot at was downed or if the plane was able to recover and then limp home, there were other factors as well.

Sure. But also, it could naturally get better (for instance thanks to gun cameras) or worse (as in this case). The point is that one shouldn't count a weapon system as marvelous, based on unsubstantiated claims as to its effectiveness.
 
Sure. But also, it could naturally get better (for instance thanks to gun cameras) or worse (as in this case). The point is that one shouldn't count a weapon system as marvelous, based on unsubstantiated claims as to its effectiveness.

Especially when you should be able to count downed aircraft on your own territory.
 
V1 and V2 were intended to be terror weapons and they certainly succeeded. They were the new Blitz without the massacre of bomber crews and escorting pilots. London was certainly terrorised, and it worked in that respect. It didn't break morale, but there was a period in Summer 1944 when it seemed like it might.

Helicopters should really be considered here. The Focke-Agelis factories were devastated in 1943, and took ages to build back up. Having them able to churn out choppers would be a definite change to the war - especially in places like Yugoslavia
 
V1 and V2 were intended to be terror weapons and they certainly succeeded. They were the new Blitz without the massacre of bomber crews and escorting pilots. London was certainly terrorised, and it worked in that respect. It didn't break morale, but there was a period in Summer 1944 when it seemed like it might.

I very much doubt, tbh. If these had come in 1940 or 41, yes, but by 1944 the UK had suffered the blitz, the sub war and the bombing campaign of 1944. Tired, yes, angry, yes. Nearly broken? No.

Helicopters should really be considered here. The Focke-Agelis factories were devastated in 1943, and took ages to build back up. Having them able to churn out choppers would be a definite change to the war - especially in places like Yugoslavia

Oo gods, yes. Helis in 1942-43 in decent numbers would have made a great efect, imho; they'd allow special ops, resuply, medevac...
 

Deleted member 1487

I very much doubt, tbh. If these had come in 1940 or 41, yes, but by 1944 the UK had suffered the blitz, the sub war and the bombing campaign of 1944. Tired, yes, angry, yes. Nearly broken? No.
It caused a lot of shock and disproportionate investments to protect against, including diverting a lot of bombing against the launch sites because of the heavy impact it had on morale; it was nearly as bad as the Blitz in terms of damage, while the feeling that the war was nearing and end made that level of attack much harsher than you'd think relative to the damage, because the public though it was beyond having to deal with mass bombing.

Oo gods, yes. Helis in 1942-43 in decent numbers would have made a great efect, imho; they'd allow special ops, resuply, medevac...
1950s or 1960s Helis yes, 1940s helis no. The engine technology was pretty weak for any of that.
 
1950s or 1960s Helis yes, 1940s helis no. The engine technology was pretty weak for any of that.

I'd disagree. Piasecki's HRP-1 could have been in squadron service earlier, in 1944 even
piasecki_banana_1.jpg

Almost one ton of payload and 8-10 passengers @103mph for a range of 265 miles was useful, using an R-1340

Anything the L-4 Grasshopper (AKA Cub) could do, this could do better
 

Deleted member 1487

I'd disagree. Piasecki's HRP-1 could have been in squadron service earlier, in 1944 even
piasecki_banana_1.jpg

Almost one ton of payload and 8-10 passengers @103mph for a range of 265 miles was useful, using an R-1340

Anything the L-4 Grasshopper (AKA Cub) could do, this could do better
Alright, but the first prototype flight was in 1945 and it entered service in 1947. So yes, a 1940s quality helicopter, but not a WW2 one.

Plus for the Germans, their versions were useful, but not particularly medi-evac, spec ops useful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Achgelis_Fa_223

Recon and spotting though would be right up the alley of the WW2 helicopters that got close to production.
 
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Alright, but the first prototype flight was in 1945 and it entered service in 1947. So yes, a 1940s quality helicopter, but not a WW2 one.

Plus for the Germans, their versions were useful, but not particularly medi-evac, spec ops useful.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Achgelis_Fa_223

Recon and spotting though would be right up the alley of the WW2 helicopters that got close to production.
There were plans to build an improved version of the Fa-223 that would've had tandem rotors, it might have been in same league as the HRP-1 or close to it.
 

Deleted member 1487

There were plans to build an improved version of the Fa-223 that would've had tandem rotors, it might have been in same league as the HRP-1 or close to it.
They might have gotten away with it too if not for those mettling B-17s!

Seriously though given that the BMW engine was 1000hp and the HRP was using only a 600hp engine I don't know why it wasn't as capable. A tandem engine set up would put it well ahead of the HRP-1 in power.
 
Sure. But also, it could naturally get better (for instance thanks to gun cameras) or worse (as in this case). The point is that one shouldn't count a weapon system as marvelous, based on unsubstantiated claims as to its effectiveness.
True enough but I think what the Me-262 did achieve in the last months of the war against an enemy with overwhelming numerical superiority was still impressive.
 
They might have gotten away with it too if not for those mettling B-17s!

Seriously though given that the BMW engine was 1000hp and the HRP was using only a 600hp engine I don't know why it wasn't as capable. A tandem engine set up would put it well ahead of the HRP-1 in power.

The real difference was the Drache used the Throttle to adjust lift, while the HRP used collective pitch to alter blade angle, so had better control. It could autorotate, if needed.

Weight of the rotor supports resulted in roughly the same power to weight ratio, and similar payload

Drache
  • Empty weight: 7,011 lb
  • Gross weight: 8,510 lb

HRP-1
  • Empty weight: 5301 lb
  • Gross weight: 7225 lb
 

Deleted member 1487

The Fa 223 could have achieved fame had it been involved in Mussolini's rescue, instead of breaking down.
It's history of breaking down doesn't really breed confidence in it's wartime ability.

Still, it does make one wonder if they had enough in service if they could have done some interesting commando operations, like during the Tito operation in 1944, where the glider landings didn't work out so well. I wonder if the early helicopters could have had some sort of gunship variant to offer support.
 
I wonder if the early helicopters could have had some sort of gunship variant to offer support.

Could they carry enough to make it worthwhile? Wiki tells me the Fa 223 carried a MMG and 500kg of bombs etc, which doesn't seem like much. A 30mm cannon and a few hundred rounds will make a big dent in that, leaving enough for a few rockets - let's say 16 WW2-equivalents of the CRV7. That's a worthwhile amount of firepower, especially if it appears by surprise, but the other thing to consider is AA fire. Gunships attract a lot of it: the Hind survived by being armoured, the Cobra by being agile, but the Fa 223 would have neither of those qualities going for it. Even worse, what if an enemy fighter shows up? Even an obsolete Gladiator would fly rings around a Fa 223, making it suicide to use anywhere the enemy was contesting the airspace. Unless German ground tactics are designed to incorporate them, and carefully shield their drawbacks, I can't see them making much difference.
 

Deleted member 1487

Could they carry enough to make it worthwhile? Wiki tells me the Fa 223 carried a MMG and 500kg of bombs etc, which doesn't seem like much. A 30mm cannon and a few hundred rounds will make a big dent in that, leaving enough for a few rockets - let's say 16 WW2-equivalents of the CRV7. That's a worthwhile amount of firepower, especially if it appears by surprise, but the other thing to consider is AA fire. Gunships attract a lot of it: the Hind survived by being armoured, the Cobra by being agile, but the Fa 223 would have neither of those qualities going for it. Even worse, what if an enemy fighter shows up? Even an obsolete Gladiator would fly rings around a Fa 223, making it suicide to use anywhere the enemy was contesting the airspace. Unless German ground tactics are designed to incorporate them, and carefully shield their drawbacks, I can't see them making much difference.
That's why I mentioned using them against the Yugoslav partisans; no AAA and no air force.
 
the Hind survived by being armoured, the Cobra by being agile

Yet the Huey persevered. nearly the same empty weight as the HRP, but with a lighter, more powerful(roughly 2X) turboshaft, twice the payload, a bit faster
  • Empty weight: 5,215 lb
  • Gross weight: 9,040 lb
  • Maximum speed: 135 mph
 
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