Nazis develop/mass produce Wunderwaffes early, not destroyed/captured or War is longer in Nazi Favor

True but , worse case scenario, they will live to fight another day. In any event the historical sample was against much slower bombers than B-29, so there may not be that much difference.

The MiG 15 made B-29s switch to night bombing over North Korea, with two caveats:

A: MiG 15 flew 140 mph faster, and 13,000 ft higher ceiling than the 262

B: North Korea had more cities destroyed than Germany or Japan by conflicts end in 1954


Also the USN and USAF used a development of the R4M, the 2.75" FFAR, the 'Mighty Mouse' that proved to be stunningly inaccurate, despite being fired in far larger numbers than what the 262 carried, and the 262 didn't have a radar altimeter or an early computerized ballistic predicting gunsight.

What the 262 needed wasn't the R4M, but a 20mm Gatling and predicting gunsight with a HUD
 
True but , worse case scenario, they will live to fight another day.

No, the worst case scenario is that the pilot does slow down for a second pass and gets nabbed by a P-51.
Or that the P-51 doesn't catch up on him at first, but the German novice pilot accelerates too quickly, kills at least one of his engines, and then he's toast anyway.

Assuming he doesn't make any of the above mistakes, he can always have an accident, of which they had a significantly higher rate than with most other fighters (well, excluding the Komet of course).

In any event the historical sample was against much slower bombers than B-29, so there may not be that much difference.

I was under the impression that one of the possibilities is that the Germans introduce this fighter earlier, so they'd be using it against the historical sample.
The other possibility, i.e. of the war dragging on for longer than in OTL, is obviously not a great idea for Germany, everything considered.
 

Deleted member 1487

What the 262 needed wasn't the R4M, but a 20mm Gatling and predicting gunsight with a HUD
Certainly it would have helped to have a revolver cannon and predicting site (they were working on both in 1945 and IIRC they did have a limited production run of a predictive reflector sight in 1944), they just had the R4M, which while inaccurate, still was extremely lethal and against bomber boxes was guaranteed to get 1-2 hits per salvo just due to the spread. For WW2 that was good enough because it was an extremely easy and cheap weapon to make and field en masse and could be fired outside the range of return fire without special maneuvering, thus allowing the Me262 to use it's speed to full effect. Having enough of them would make daylight bombing too expensive.
 

Deleted member 1487

So you now want an earlier production of Me 262s and R4Ms. Anything else? Maybe somehow getting the claims of JG 7 with their rockets somehow closer to the actual losses registered by the bombers?
Do you have the numbers comparing claims vs. actual?
I was referring to the R4M in it's OTL role, not saying it should be moved up in production, though that certainly would help. Without masses of escort fighters like in late 1944-45 when the Me262 first flew, it could do it's roller coaster cannon attacks until someone figures out the R4M; perhaps earlier combat experience with the Me262 would cause the concept to appear sooner; technologically it could have been made in the mid-1930s, it wasn't difficult technology, it's more of a conceptual issue.
 
Certainly it would have helped to have a revolver cannon and predicting site (they were working on both in 1945 and IIRC they did have a limited production run of a predictive reflector sight in 1944)

But no radar altimeter, you really can't have a decent predictor without knowing the exact range.

And the US developed that Mauser revolver to the M39, and four of them were nowhere near as good as a single M61 Vulcan. An electric driven Gatling was well within their capability, since they already had electrically primed ammo from the MG151/20
 
Quad 30mm HEI on existing sights were good enough, and ME-262 is already 3 times as effective as piston fighters vs B-17 bombers...so no need for any thing more yet. Given the Me-262 link Wiking provided -being a lot faster than B-17 does not improve MIG-15 chances VS B-29, so results will still be good enough.

However improving the flak would not hurt.
 
Quad 30mm HEI on existing sights were good enough, and ME-262 is already 3 times as effective as piston fighters vs B-17 bombers...so no need for any thing more yet. Given the Me-262 link Wiking provided -being a lot faster than B-17 does not improve MIG-15 chances VS B-29, so results will still be good enough.

Point was that dayfighter MiG-15s still couldn't prevent DPRK cities from looking worse than Berlin or Tokyo did in 1945.

Flatter shooting 20mm, and more projectiles flying in the short time there was a firing solution existed makes it easier on the pilot. 6000rpm tops 650, esp with the tracer ratio the M61 ran at
 
Point was that dayfighter MiG-15s still couldn't prevent DPRK cities from looking worse than Berlin or Tokyo did in 1945.

Flatter shooting 20mm, and more projectiles flying in the short time there was a firing solution existed makes it easier on the pilot. 6000rpm tops 650, esp with the tracer ratio the M61 ran at

Yes its a different war so results may not be that comparable.....but hey -you brought it up.
 
The key to getting ME-262 into operation earlier is to get the JU-OO4A jet engine to work in 1942 without that all this discussion is a moot point . Reportedly it was the lack of critical Nickel & Chrome resources alloyed in -steel that prohibited production of such engines in sufficient number. While it is a big ask- its far from being impossible.

Vast quantities of both metals were used through out the Wehrmacht rearmament. 110,000 tons of armored steel was used in the WESTWALL , while twice as much was used in tank & naval rearmament from 1934-1940. The surprising part was that the bulk of this WESTWALL armor went to machine guns mounted on large armored walls [2m x 3m walls] in the 10,000 bunkers, that were built.

Further more - it can be expected that similar amounts of armored steel was planned for the ATLANTIC WALL as was invested in the WESTWALL. However it could also be reasonably expected during wartime- the amounts of such strategic metals in such armor would be cut drastically.
 

Deleted member 1487

The key to getting ME-262 into operation earlier is to get the JU-OO4A jet engine to work in 1942 without that all this discussion is a moot point . Reportedly it was the lack of critical Nickel & Chrome resources alloyed in -steel that prohibited production of such engines in sufficient number. While it is a big ask- its far from being impossible.

Vast quantities of both metals were used through out the Wehrmacht rearmament. 110,000 tons of armored steel was used in the WESTWALL , while twice as much was used in tank & naval rearmament from 1934-1940. The surprising part was that the bulk of this WESTWALL armor went to machine guns mounted on large armored walls [2m x 3m walls] in the 10,000 bunkers, that were built.

Further more - it can be expected that similar amounts of armored steel was planned for the ATLANTIC WALL as was invested in the WESTWALL. However it could also be reasonably expected during wartime- the amounts of such strategic metals in such armor would be cut drastically.
I wonder how much if any of the West Wall was recycled?
 
The key to getting ME-262 into operation earlier is to get the JU-OO4A jet engine to work in 1942 without that all this discussion is a moot point . Reportedly it was the lack of critical Nickel & Chrome resources alloyed in -steel that prohibited production of such engines in sufficient number. While it is a big ask- its far from being impossible.

Nickel, cobalt, molybdenum, boron, and titanium are some of the constituents of Tinidur and other components of the Jumo 004A. Chrome was used in the cromadur used in the Jumo 004B engine. Boron and titanium come from the former Soviet Union. Can you see the problem here? Sure, you can still get boron from Turkey, or can you?
 
I wonder how much if any of the West Wall was recycled?
You don't recycle it, you don't built the NAVAL armored steel in the first place. You designate them as strategic from the early 1930s and stockpile them for the conflict to come.

naval armored steel composed of
0.335% Carbon
0.5% Silicon
0.335% Manganese
2.35% Chrome
2.4% Nickel
0.25% Molybdenum
0.085% copper

So to a first approximation 110,000 tons represents.
0.335% Carbon = 368.5 tons
0.5% Silicon = 550 tons
0.335% Manganese =386.5 tons
2.35% Chrome = 2585 tons
2.4% Nickel = 2640 tons
0.25% Molybdenum = 275 tons
0.085% copper = 94 tons

Tinidur alloy was in fact
0.14% carbon
1% silicon
1% manganese
15.5% Chrome
31% Nickel
2.25% Titanium
0.2% aluminum

Reportedly 88kg of nickel was used in each Tinidur JU-004A jet engine. Going on the TINIDUR alloy list- this suggests..each JU-004A JET ENGINE needed.....
1/2kg of carbon [368.5tons supply = 3/4 million units]
2.8kg of silicon [550 tons supply = 178,571 units]
2.8kg of manganese [368.5 tons supply = 131,607 units]
44kg of Chrome [ 2585 tons supply = 58,750 units]
88kg of Nickel [2640 tons supply = 30,000 units]
6.4kg of Titanium [0 units un know supply ]
1/2kg of Aluminum [0-units : but aluminum produced in the hundreds of thousands of tons per war year]

So at first glance, the materials needed for 30,000 , JU-004A hot sections are available in the alloying materials allocated to each of the ATLANTIC WALL, WESTWALL, ARMORED WARSHIP program's.
 
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You don't recycle it, you don't built the NAVAL armored steel in the first place. You designate them as strategic from the early 1930s and stockpile them for the conflict to come.

naval armored steel composed of
0.335% Carbon
0.5% Silicon
0.335% Manganese
2.35% Chrome
2.4% Nickel
0.25% Molybdenum
0.085% copper

So to a first approximation 110,000 tons represents.
0.335% Carbon = 368.5 tons
0.5% Silicon = 550 tons
0.335% Manganese =386.5 tons
2.35% Chrome = 2585 tons
2.4% Nickel = 2640 tons
0.25% Molybdenum = 275 tons
0.085% copper = 94 tons

Tinidur alloy was in fact
0.14% carbon
1% silicon
1% manganese
15.5% Chrome
31% Nickel
2.25% Titanium
0.2% aluminum

For Stellite 21, a not secret late '30s alloy that was used in early US jets, used this

0.007% Boron
0.20-30% Carbon
1% Silicon
1% manganese
1.75-3.75% Nickel
3% Iron
5-6.0% Molybdenum
25.0-29% Chromium
remainder Cobalt, roughly 56-60%

Generally, any place that has Copper or Nickel mines, also has Cobalt
 
Clearly every body approached this differently. UK used mostly Nickel in there early jet engines.
 
The Atlantic Wall itself was a terrible waste, I think Patton had it right in regards to pinning hopes on fixed fortifications. Although I’m not sure either ‘Wall’ counts as Wunderwaffe.

lol so the Germans didn't learn any lesson from the failure of the Maginot Line and the Fall of France?
 
6.4kg of Titanium [0 units un know supply ]

The modern method of titanium metal production was invented by William J Kroll in Luxembourg in the late '30s. He made a batch of 20 kgs, and went off to see if anybody cared. They didn't much, but should have. He didn't like the sound of German jackboots, so he emigrated to the US in Feb 1940, and worked at Union Carbide. One could only wonder what could have happened if the Germans had worn rubber-soled boots, or sneakers.

I think German ore comes from Kazakhstan now.

Krupp was aware that more nickel was probably better, and cobalt alloys showed great promise, but also realized that you can't use what you ain't got.

Sorry I mixed up my alloys. Tinidur is history, but A-286 is still viable, with molybdenum and boron in little bits. But you left out the Fe in your Tinidur recipe.
 
Krupp was aware that more nickel was probably better, and cobalt alloys showed great promise, but also realized that you can't use what you ain't got.

Tisova had historic Copper production in Czechoslovakia, and later when Cobalt was in higher demand, found that the tailings from there. Same for the Erzgebirge range on the German side of the Border

Finland also had Cobalt deposits. I seen a list from 1973 that Finland made 1800 tons a year, and West Germany 800 tons
 
I think German ore comes from Kazakhstan now.

Krupp was aware that more nickel was probably better, and cobalt alloys showed great promise, but also realized that you can't use what you ain't got.

Sorry I mixed up my alloys. Tinidur is history, but A-286 is still viable, with molybdenum and boron in little bits. But you left out the Fe in your Tinidur recipe.
Yeah the rest of the % was steel as they were after an heat resistant austenitic steel, they were at least 1/2 dozen alloys developed though the war.

TINIDUR .... C 0.14% + SI 1% + 1% Mn+ 15.5% CR + 31% Ni + 2.2% TI + AL 0.2%
CROMADUR...C 0.1% + SI 0.7% + 18% Mn + CR 14% + 0.8% Mo
SINIDUR.... C 0.25% +19% CR +24% Ni + 2% Mo + 3% Ti + 2% AL
VINADUR.... C 0.1% + 0.4% Mn + 0.6% Si + 11% Ni+ 18% Cr + 0.7% Ti + 1% V + 0.5& Mo
BMW-003 JET ENGINE.........
FBD....... 0.1% C+1% Si + 15% Cr +17% Ni + 2% Ta-Nb
FCMD......0.12% + 0.5%Si + 15% Mn + + 13.7% Cr + 0.5% Mo+ 0.2% Cu + 0.2% Ta-Nb
SICROMAL ....C 0.1% + 1.5% Si+ 12% Cr
REMANT 1880S....18% Mn + 13% Cr+ 8% Ni
 
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