Nazis develop/mass produce Wunderwaffes early, not destroyed/captured or War is longer in Nazi Favor

Deleted member 1487

The RR Nene was developed in 1944-5, the Klimov VK-1 1946-7. A bit too late for Nazis to use them.
And? They had their own, which made aircraft that were too fast to be intercepted and could catch up to enemy bombers with ease.

How are they going to shoot down a B-29 carrying a nuke?
How is FLAK going to shoot down an aircraft? By shooting at it.
 

Deleted member 1487

Which ones were these? I've never heard of such a Luftwaffe aircraft ever existing.
Me262. Intercepts nearly exclusively happened on landing or take off, with some very exceptional cases of late war piston engine diving on unaware jet pilots from a much higher higher altitude to catch them.

That tactic worked well over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
How much AAA did they even have?
 
ATGMs would have been the real game changer, but I can't imagine anyone in the administration advocating a defensive ambush weapon even when it was 100% needed
 

nbcman

Donor
Which ones were these? I've never heard of such a Luftwaffe aircraft ever existing.

That tactic worked well over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Japan had far less heavy AA than the Germans. Their best AA weapon which could engage B-29s at the elevation which the Enola Gay dropped their bomb (about 9900 meters), the Type 3 12 cm, was produced in limited quantities (120 in all). Germany produced over a thousand 12.8 cm Flak, over four thousand 10.5 cm Flak, and over five hundred 8.8 cm Flak 41 which could engage B-29s at the 9900 meter elevation; there is a table on the 8.8 cm Flak wiki page which lists the German production of heavy AA.
 

Deleted member 1487

ATGMs would have been the real game changer, but I can't imagine anyone in the administration advocating a defensive ambush weapon even when it was 100% needed
Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek?

And weren't ATGM not really viable until the 1970s due to the guidance issues?
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
Me262. Intercepts nearly exclusively happened on landing or take off

In your fantasy world, perhaps. Reality was rather different. An aircraft that can be shot down returning to its home airfield is largely useless, anyway.

Same goes for the Me163, Ar234, both of which were stunningly easy to shoot down, in a Mustang or Tempest or Spit XIV that was 100 mph slower.
 

Deleted member 1487

In your fantasy world, perhaps. Reality was rather different. An aircraft that can be shot down returning to its home airfield is largely useless, anyway.
ANY aircraft could be shot down landing, even modern jets. What mattered was AAA defense at that point, which made bouncing landing or taking off aircraft too costly in most cases:
Some Me 262s were destroyed using a tactic known to 135 Wing as the "Rat Scramble";[58] Tempests on immediate alert took off when an Me 262 was reported to be airborne. They did not directly intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Rheine-Hopsten.[59][nb 10] The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. The Germans responded by creating a "flak lane" of over 150 of the dreaded Flakvierling "quadmount" 20 mm (.79 in) AA batteries at Rheine-Hopsten, to protect the approaches.[60] [nb 11] After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Rheine-Hopsten in a single week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. For a while, in March 1945, a strict "No, repeat, No ground attacks" policy was imposed; this only applied for a few days.[61]

Same goes for the Me163, Ar234, both of which were stunningly easy to shoot down, in a Mustang or Tempest or Spit XIV that was 100 mph slower.
Speaking of fantasy land. :rolleyes:
 
Panzerfaust and Panzerschrek?

And weren't ATGM not really viable until the 1970s due to the guidance issues?

French SSM came online in 1955, based on development from experimental Nazi guided missiles. From Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but the US got about a 10% kill ratio with the SSM in Vietnam, which compares to Sagger in 1973. I have no idea if the Germans could make something that good before the end of the war, but they were at least thinking about it.

MCLOS requires well-trained crews and even if we assume the Germans can create a bug-free ATGM by late 1944, they probably won't be able to stop allied armor in its tracks, but they'll scare the shit out of tank crews and revise allied tactics.

SACLOS didn't exist until the 1970's, and that's what truly revolutionized antitank weapons
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
Speaking of fantasy land. :rolleyes:

So Col John C Meyer, of the 352nd FG imagined shooting down a Ar234, and his gun camera footage was faked, Lt Urban L Drew of the 361st FG imagined shooting down two Me262s in one sortie, and his gun camera footage was faked, and Capt Louis H Norley of the 4th FG, and Lt Col John B Murphy and Capt Raymond Wetmore of the 359th FG all imagined shooting down an Me 163 each, all in P-51D/Ks?

Your Bulletproof Magitech Luftwaffe never existed.
 
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Deleted member 1487

So Col John C Meyer, of the 352nd FG imagined shooting down a Ar234, and his gun camera footage was faked, Lt Urban L Drew of the 361st FG imagined shooting down two Me262s in one sortie, and his gun camera footage was faked, and Capt Louis H Norley of the 4th FG, and Lt Col John B Murphy and Capt Raymond Wetmore of the 359th FG all imagined shooting down an Me 163 each, all in P-51D/Ks?

Your Bulletproof Magitech Luftwaffe never existed.
So a few anecdotes means they were easy to shoot down? The limited number of examples demonstrates rather the opposite, that they were the exceptional cases.

and the inverse:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#Counter-jet_tactics
Luftwaffe pilots eventually learned how to handle the Me 262's higher speed and the Me 262 soon proved a formidable air superiority fighter, with pilots such as Franz Schall managing to shoot down 17 enemy fighters in the Me 262, 10 of them American P-51 Mustangs. Other notable Me 262 aces included Georg-Peter Eder, with 12 enemy fighters to his credit (including nine P-51s), Erich Rudorffer also with 12 enemy fighters to his credit, Walther Dahl with 11 (including three Lavochkin La-7s and six P-51s) and Heinz-Helmut Baudach with six (including one Spitfire and two P-51s) amongst many others.
 
So a few anecdotes means they were easy to shoot down? The limited number of examples demonstrates rather the opposite, that they were the exceptional cases.

and the inverse:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262#Counter-jet_tactics

The Allies had air surpremacy. The P-51s could hang around waiting for the Me262s and Ar234s to land. Early jets had very poor accelaration. I'm no big fan of the 262 (I think it's rather overrated) but in this scenario the deck was stacked in the Allies favour.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
So a few anecdotes means they were easy to shoot down? The limited number of examples demonstrates rather the opposite, that they were the exceptional cases.

That is just the 8th Air Force. I don't the numbers of the 15th Air Force, 9th Air Force, or 2TAF to hand, but German jets and rockets made little impact on Allied operations. The same would have been the case if they had been available in June 1944, or February 1944.

Their earlier arrival would merely have prompted accelerated Allied development of the superior Meteor, Vampire and P-80, which were not priority programs

These 8AF pilots each shot down two Luftwaffe jet aircraft alongside their usual kills

Captain D.H. Bochkay 357th FG 2 Me 262s
Capt. G.B. Compton 357th FG 2 Me 262s
Capt. D.M. Cummings of the 55th FG 2 Me 262s in one sortie February 25, 1945
Captain R. DeLoach of the 55th FG 2 Me 262s
First Lt. Urban Drew of the 361st FG 2 Me 262s in one sortie October 7, 1944 on a perfect bounce while landing.
Capt. R.S. Fifield of the 357th FG 2 Me 262s
Capt. N.C. Greer of the 339th FG 2 Me 262s
First Lt. H.O. Thompson of the 479th FG 1 Me 262, 1 Ar 234.

all in P-51Ds, all with camera gun confirmation - they would have been probable kills without it.

If your aircraft is 100mph faster than the fighters it has to face in combat - and it still gets shot down in droves - it's probably not very good.

However, no Gloster Meteors were ever shot down by any kind of enemy aircraft during WW2. ;) (Anglo-wunderwaffe)

Walther Nowotny, one of the greatest aces the Luftwaffe produced, was killed on his first combat operation in the Me262.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence to get your teeth into.
 
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Deleted member 1487

That is just the 8th Air Force. I don't the numbers of the 15th Air Force, 9th Air Force, or 2TAF to hand, but German jets and rockets made little impact on Allied operations. The same would have been the case if they had been available in June 1944, or February 1944.

These 8AF pilots each shot two Luftwaffe jet aircraft alongside their usual kills

Captain D.H. Bochkay 357th FG 2 Me 262s
Capt. G.B. Compton 357th FG 2 Me 262s
Capt. D.M. Cummings of the 55th FG 2 Me 262s in one sortie February 25, 1945
Captain R. DeLoach of the 55th FG 2 Me 262s
First Lt. Urban Drew of the 361st FG 2 Me 262s in one sortie October 7, 1944 on a perfect bounce while landing.
Capt. R.S. Fifield of the 357th FG 2 Me 262s
Capt. N.C. Greer of the 339th FG 2 Me 262s
First Lt. H.O. Thompson of the 479th FG 1 Me 262, 1 Ar 234.

all in P-51Ds, all with camera gun confirmation - they would have been probable kills without it.

If your aircraft is 100mph faster than the fighters it has to face in combat - and it still gets shot down in droves - it's probably not very good.

However, no Gloster Meteors were ever shot down by any enemy aircraft during WW2. ;) (Anglo-wunderwaffe)

Walther Nowotny, one of the greatest aces the Luftwaffe produced, was killed on his first combat operation in the Me262.
The Anglo wunderwaffe was never used in combat against enemy aircraft.

Nowotny was apparently killed by an engine fire.

You seem to be really going to great lengths to cite a handful of examples here, but neglect the circumstances in most of these cases.
 

Wimble Toot

Banned
4th FG shot down 7 Me 262s, 2 Me 163s 1 Ar 234
20th FG shot down 5 Me 262s
31st FG shot down 7 Me 262s
52nd FG shot down 1 Ar 234
55th FG shot down 14 Me 262s, 1 unidentified jet
78th FG shot down 11 Me 262s 2 Ar 234s
325th FG shot down 1 Me 262
332nd FG shot down 3 Me 262s (Tuskegee airmen, even black men can kill the master race in jets!)
339th FG shot down 14 Me 262s, 2 Ar 234s
352nd FG shot down 5 Me 262s & 2 Ar 234s
353rd FG shot down 7 Me 262s
354th FG shot down 4 Me 262s
355th FG shot down 4 Me 262s, 1 Ar 234
356th FG shot down 2 Me 262s, 2 Ar 234s
357th FG shot down 18 Me 262s
359th FG shot down 5 Me 262s, 2 Me 163's
361st FG shot down 6 Me 262s
364th FG shot down 1 Me 262s, 1 Me 163
479th FG shot down 5 Me 262s, 1 Ar 234

If anyone has stats for how many Mustangs were shot down by Me262s, I would like to know.

Still, the Me262 looked cool, even if it wasn't much good.
 

Deleted member 1487

4th FG shot down 7 Me 262s, 2 Me 163s 1 Ar 234
20th FG shot down 5 Me 262s
31st FG shot down 7 Me 262s
52nd FG shot down 1 Ar 234
55th FG shot down 14 Me 262s, 1 unidentified jet
78th FG shot down 11 Me 262s 2 Ar 234s
325th FG shot down 1 Me 262
332nd FG shot down 3 Me 262s (Tuskegee airmen, even black men can kill the master race in jets!)
339th FG shot down 14 Me 262s, 2 Ar 234s
352nd FG shot down 5 Me 262s & 2 Ar 234s
353rd FG shot down 7 Me 262s
354th FG shot down 4 Me 262s
355th FG shot down 4 Me 262s, 1 Ar 234
356th FG shot down 2 Me 262s, 2 Ar 234s
357th FG shot down 18 Me 262s
359th FG shot down 5 Me 262s, 2 Me 163's
361st FG shot down 6 Me 262s
364th FG shot down 1 Me 262s, 1 Me 163
479th FG shot down 5 Me 262s, 1 Ar 234

If anyone has stats for how many Mustangs were shot down by Me262s, I would like to know.

Still, the Me262 looked cool, even if it wasn't much good.
Source and circumstances. How many were shot down while land, taking off, and during ground attack?
 

Deleted member 1487

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Me262-Combat-Diary-John-Foreman/dp/1871187516

It doesn't matter. They were destroyed. That's all that matters.

It cost the Nazis more to replace an Me262 and its pilot than it did the USAAF to replace a Mustang and its pilot.
It actually does matter when you're discussing their combat capabilities. BTW what were the losses of those FGs in the efforts to do ground attack/takeoff-landing attacks?

Allied claims for Me262s destroyed
Your link doesn't even say confirmed kills....
 
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