nazis conscripted "undesirables"

IN NO WAY DO I ENDORSE THIS POLICY.

What would have been the effect on WWII if the Nazis instead of exterminating their "undesirables" had developed a policy of conscripting Jewish and other "undesirable" males to throw at eastern front. In order to prevent these armed Jews turning on the nazis round up their women and children in slave labor camps as otl with the understanding that if the armed Jews turn on the Germans the women and children would be exterminated. I am estimating that they would have been able to throw an extra 2 million men at the Russians. Even if armed and trained less then typical German units 2 million men would make a large dent in Russian defenses.
 

nbcman

Donor
Logistics precludes this idea even if the Nazi's could overcome their bat-crap racial theories. The Nazi's couldn't supply the forces that they had in Russia IOTL. Adding 2 million more 'undesirables' troops plus not exterminating their family members would far exceed the German's ability to feed everyone.
 
They effectively did conscript them, just as laborers. Whom they didn't feed. The Nazi policy usually wasn't to exterminate able-bodied peoples outright (though thousands and thousands and thousands of Jews and others were) but to put them in work camps where they were worked to death on little or sometimes even no food until they died of starvation, disease, or were killed once they were no longer useful.

The problem with the Nazis mostly wasn't that they were inefficient about achieving their goals. It was that their goals were really evil.
 
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A parallel to this prewar was allowing Communists to escape sanctions or prison by joining the NSDAP. During the war Ossie's & other undesirables were used as fillers in the Atlantic Wall. Most surrendered at the first opportunity.
 
Arming Jews would be counterproductive in that the Poles, Ukrainians, etc would be a super on the idea. Might be interesting if ghettos were entire cities and some farmland. Have the Jewish population stay in their to protect themselves from local pogroms, with just enough kept men kept their to protect the perimeter. Or you say Germans will do the protecting. Really though, this would require giong out of their way to make separate brigades for them, and... Well, I don't see people who think Jews are traitorous cowards would give them hundreds of thousands of weapons. Even if they were all unloaded, that is a lot of weaponry. More likely they simply support the Slavs, Balts, etc. Support their anti-Soviet armed groups, maybe some of their governments, then you have most of Eastern Europe going along with it and you can pick off those you don't want later. Maybe they require certain areas form all of them for German colonialism while giving them all more land further Easton, then over the decades nudge them more and more. It would require an earlier focus on communism as an enemy rather than everyone under Soviet dominion being slated for slavery and death. By the time the tide was turning in WWII, I would say the Nazis burnt most of their bridges.
 
More likely they simply support the Slavs, Balts, etc. Support their anti-Soviet armed groups, maybe some of their governments, then you have most of Eastern Europe going along with it and you can pick off those you don't want later.

The answer to this old fallacy is in post #2 above.
 
The answer to this old fallacy is in post #2 above.
In Ukraine it turned out that the Romanian occupied area was comparitvely prosperous and well fed to the German occupied areas. The main reason? Not murdering everyone. They don't need to feed the people, just let them grow their own food. Hell, the Germans had a labor shortage through a great deal of the war, for which they had the French round up a hundred thousand plus Frenchmen to work in their factories. Having Soviet POWs or locals getting away from fighting and simply getting to work in German factories, in farms, in mines, whatever, it could be managed. Not as if they would start delivering rations to Eastern Europeans.
 
But the OP is that the men are used as soldiers and the women and children are hostages, not that they used the 'undesirables' in areas that would free up German men.

How seriously are they going to believe that Hitler and company are going to keep their promises? I mean, these people were German citizens until Hitler decided they weren't. So, we've got unwilling, undeserving to be called German soldiers on the front lines? Seriously, Hitler's going to let this 'scum' take credit for a Soviet victory? I don't think so.
 
In Ukraine it turned out that the Romanian occupied area was comparitvely prosperous and well fed to the German occupied areas. The main reason? Not murdering everyone. They don't need to feed the people, just let them grow their own food. Hell, the Germans had a labor shortage through a great deal of the war, for which they had the French round up a hundred thousand plus Frenchmen to work in their factories. Having Soviet POWs or locals getting away from fighting and simply getting to work in German factories, in farms, in mines, whatever, it could be managed. Not as if they would start delivering rations to Eastern Europeans.

... of course, then you're flooding Germany proper with millions of Slavs. I can't imagine that's something the citizenry is going to be particularly comfortable with.

Maybe instead they set up "Safe zones"/Strategic hamlets under the perview of local collaborators w/ some German oversight? Then have the locals send out the word that, if you're in these "safe" areas and are willing to work in local factory/on the local farm, you and your family will be presumed loyal and be allowed to go about your daily lives? Even if you want to exterminate them later, that means they're all nicely rounded up, and can provide food/material of war to the German Army without tainting the Fatherland (And with the added benefit of less logistical strain). Of course, Stalin would probably order the residents of any hamlets he recaptured shot en-mass... but that just gives you a motivation to work harder so Stalin dosen't have the chance to hit you and your family, dosen't it?
 
Logistics precludes this idea even if the Nazi's could overcome their bat-crap racial theories. The Nazi's couldn't supply the forces that they had in Russia IOTL. Adding 2 million more 'undesirables' troops plus not exterminating their family members would far exceed the German's ability to feed everyone.
Yes to this. They would sooner conscript balts and western ukrainians. Plus, they needed the labor anyway so they can use Germans to fight.
 
In Ukraine it turned out that the Romanian occupied area was comparitvely prosperous and well fed to the German occupied areas. The main reason? Not murdering everyone.

Oh, that was the main reason? The Romanians weren't wholesale murderers? Have you heard about what happened in Odessa in October 1941?
Now, start by looking up the food balance of Germany and of Romania pre-war. Did Germany have a food surplus, or a food deficit? Did Romania have a food deficit, or a food surplus?
If the German troops in the field did not "live off the land", i.e. by stealing food from the locals, where would their food come from, do you think?
Now look at the food balance of Southern Ukraine and, say, the region occupied by HGN beyond Lithuania. Which was called "the breadbasket of Europe"? Which had more than its fair share of forests and lakes and swamps?

They don't need to feed the people, just let them grow their own food.

Sure the Germans can let the farmers in the occupied areas of the Soviet Union grow food. That's exactly what they did. Only, they also need to requisition that food to feed the army. Oh, and they will also need the horses. And the carts, to bring the food to the army units.
How do you think the farmers will fare?
And they are the lucky ones. They're close to the source, firstly, and secondly the Germans need them. So they can, if barely, survive with what little food is left to them.
Now let's look at the urban population. There's the factory worker, who might be useful to the Germans - if they wanted a factory in the Soviet city and if the factory's machines had not been removed to the Urals. Then there are the university professor, the violin player, and the party official - all members of the intellighentsia, which the Germans don't want to exist. Then there are the insurance claims clerk and the specialized shopkeeper, the streetsweeper and the dentist's assistant - what use are they to the Germans? Aren't they, you know, "superfluous eaters"? (I'm not using this term at random, look it up).
What's more, producing the food is only part of the problem when it comes to occupied Soviet cities. Assume the Germans have enough food in the countryside; assume they're willing to feed the city dwellers. What will bring the food to the city? Carts and horses that could gather the produce to the nearest railway stations have been requisitioned. The locomotives, rolling stock, and rail lines themselves are working non-stop for the Heer. So?

Hell, the Germans had a labor shortage through a great deal of the war, for which they had the French round up a hundred thousand plus Frenchmen to work in their factories. Having Soviet POWs or locals getting away from fighting and simply getting to work in German factories, in farms, in mines, whatever, it could be managed. Not as if they would start delivering rations to Eastern Europeans.

What makes you think the Germans did not import Slavic slave labor (the allitteration is not casual, it tells you how central Europeans historically looked at these populations) to Germany? Who do you think was driving the plough in Fritz's farm while he was at the front in 1943, his wife Gretchen? No, Gretchen ran the farm, but wasn't strong enough for the plough. It was Ivan. And in the city, who do you think took care of Frida's house and children while she was working as a clerk in the procurement office of the nearest factory, thus replacing Hans who had died in Stalingrad? It was Masha. Down in the coal mine, who loaded the trolleys, given that Horst, who used to do that, was a POW in India? It was Piotr.

IOW, the above is a proposal for the Germans to do what they did do in OTL.
And, of course, these imported slaves were eating worse and less than the Germans. Ivan ate relatively well because he was close to the source and could steal a potato or two. Masha might have fared not so bad if Frida wasn't a harsh mistress. As to Piotr, well, he lasted six months, then fell ill because of exhaustion and malnourishment, was not treated, and died.

Read about Generalplan Ost before posting again.
 
Read about Generalplan Ost before posting again.
No need to be self righteous, this thread is an attempt to get how to make the German exploitation of the East a bit more feasible, without isolating everyone by killing them. And yes, we all KNOW about Generalplan Ost. This is NOT about the plan. The thread itself means there would need to be changes to the plan, if only because of a greater respect from the German armed forces for their allies if it should be successful, just as the Germans gave Honorary Nordic status to the Finns for their long fight against the Germans, or how they reclassified Walloons as being fundamentally Germanic French-speakers due to actions of their soldiers on the Eastern Front. And yes, I expect death, serfdom, etc for a great majority of people. What I mentioned was a possibility of the Germans basically going through with their plan in steps, taking the areas they wanted ten years to colonize, when moving people further to the East, then repeating the process later. As for the part Nazi policy with laborers, it is a bit anachronistic I admit, since the labor shortage may not have been quite as intense until after a good deal of the Soviet POWs had starved to death. I'll try to get back to your full post later, as I came on here early in the morning, and just kept answering and reediting due to a bit of rage. Settling down though, I think I may have been making suggestions farther than the OP question about conscription on military matters.
 
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No need to be self righteous, this thread is an attempt to get how to make the German exploitation of the East a bit more feasible, without isolating everyone by killing them. And yes, we all KNOW about Generalplan Ost. This is NOT about the plan.

Then you are not getting the point.

What I mentioned was a possibility of the Germans basically going through with their plan in steps, taking the areas they wanted ten years to colonize, when moving people further to the East, then repeating the process later.

Indeed you aren't.
It's 1941. You have to decide what to do now, not in ten years. Do you let the Ukrainans manage their own food produce as usual? If you do, then they eat more or less as usual, and they might like you and continue to flock to your recruiting offices. In a year or so, you might easily have five Ukrainan SS Divisions - provided you prefer giving them the equipment that could outfit five new German divisions. Or you could have that much manpower working for you in non-combat duties.

But if you do that, you won't be giving enough food to your troops in the field. Now, not next year, not in ten years.

As an alternative, you can let the Ukrainans feed themselves and you can bring food to your troops from Germany. If you do that
a) the people not getting enough to eat are the German civilians, and
b) all the wagon payload that is taken up by food shipped all the way from Germany means that much less payload consisting of ammunition and fuel.

In short, if you don't start starving the Ukrainans now, your armies will fare even worse than OTL 1941.

What applies to Ukrainan civilians applies to everybody else. Jews, other undesirables, those Soviet POWs who were left to starve behind barbed wire that year. There - is - not - enough - food.
 
Years ago I saw a summary of German records estimating what they thought had been salvaged from the conquered portion of the Soviet 1941 harvest. Can't recall the numbers but remember the bottom line was ugly.

Germany was already under a very tight ration system in 1940. The occupied territories of 21 June 1941 were even more tightly rationed.
 
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