Nazi Victory

Yes I know this has probably been done to death and I am sorry, I have labelled the thread clearly so it can be easily ignored though.

I don't seem to be able to find any timelines on here that deal with a Nazi victory (or a 'draw') in WW2. I wonder if that is because all things considered such a thing is regarded as to ASBish?

Basically, I would love to find a believiable way in which Nazi Germany wins WW2, without seriously changing how that war is fought (e.g. Germany and Russia never fight is not acceptable), and subsequently enters into a cold war with America. Ideally if this could be combined with the Japanese suffering no worse than a partial defeat (but thats maybe pushing it a bit).

Can anyone point me in the right direction?
 

Xen

Banned
I've been playing around with an idea of Hitler dying shortly after the invasion of the USSR, and Goering taking over and changing German strategy a bit. Goering reinstates the Tsar and makes the war against the USSR as a war against Stalin and his regime rather than one against Russia, this results in Germans treating Russians better and getting them to support the puppet Tsar.

The US does not get involved in Europe as Goering condemns Japans attack on Pearl Harbor, but relations between Germany and the US are very low. I had Britain launching a surprise invasion of Norway, and begins liberating it from the Nazi's but by 1943 the USSR is dissolved, and breaks apart into infighting, Tsarist Russia is restored and Britain is forced to request an armistice. Goering lets Britain off relatively light though.

The US finishes off Japan much earlier and holds a hegemony over the Pacific, and forms an anti-Nazi alliance with Britain, and the world is engulfed into a very different Cold War.

I started a thread about Hitlers death and the Tsar returning but have been revising it to fit what I just described, I just don't have it posted yet.
 
The only conceivable ways for it to happen require either the UK or the USSR to sue for peace and Hitler to accept the peace, and neither of those events are within the control of the Nazis. Otherwise, they will fail in nearly all cases. In the case of the latter, Hitler's just achieved his major aim (expansion across the USSR) and then the war with the UK will sooner or later fizzle out, because the Nazis can now afford to start slamming into the African front relatively easily and then the Brits have no land forces to speak of. And no Wars of the X Coalitions are likely in that case. In that case, I expect Generalplan Ost would go into effect and the Russians and Balts and Poles and Yugoslavs would suffer the fate of the North American Indians, and the Cold War would be between liberal democracy and fascism.

In that case, I could see that instead of the contradiction between the egalitarian ideas of Communism and its dictatorial reality, the contrast between rank-and-file enthusiasm for radicalism and the strict conservatism of the leaders would be the ideological criticism, and that Americans would know far more Chinese than European languages. Also, the largest ethnic group in Europe would be very bad off indeed and most Slavic languages would be in the situation of say, Yukhagir or Onge today.
 
Last edited:
Yes I know this has probably been done to death and I am sorry, I have labelled the thread clearly so it can be easily ignored though.

I don't seem to be able to find any timelines on here that deal with a Nazi victory (or a 'draw') in WW2. I wonder if that is because all things considered such a thing is regarded as to ASBish?

Basically, I would love to find a believiable way in which Nazi Germany wins WW2, without seriously changing how that war is fought (e.g. Germany and Russia never fight is not acceptable), and subsequently enters into a cold war with America. Ideally if this could be combined with the Japanese suffering no worse than a partial defeat (but thats maybe pushing it a bit).

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Fatherland novel by Robert Harris?
 
Fatherland novel by Robert Harris?

As far as I recall he does not go into great detail about how the war was actually won.

Edit: Actually I am wrong, even though I have read the thing I checked it out on wikipedia and it does. I think my memory is blurred by the fact it's just a shit book.
 
Last edited:
sl

There is idea going around that the Germans would have colonized European Russia if they won the war.
That is just not possible.
Yes Hitler want to but who in Germany apart from the hard core Nazis is willing to leave life in Germany to settle in Russia?
If Hitler forces the German people to move he will lose his popularity and will risk assassination by the German army which was trying to get rid of him for a along time and now will have the perfect opportunity.
So the most realistic scenario of post war Germany is Germany gets Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland, the Baltic states, some parts of northeast France, parts of Denmark (border 1914), parts of Slovenia.
Russia, Ukraine, France, Slovakia will be client states.
Crimea and the Caucasus region will be colonies.
For all this to work Germany after defeating France needs to focus on organizing its air defenses, keeping Italy from escalating the war in the Mediterranean and prepare a more realistic plan for defeating USSR without alienating it’s the native population.
Al long as Germany keeps a low profile in the north Atlantic and wages war in a more sanitized way, confines itself with deporting the Jews form the Germany itself but not from the rest of the German controlled territories US is not going to declare war or intervene in Europe.
As for GB there is a general consensus that GB will bring Germany down at all costs that they will get US to declare war, give them an atomic weapon, fiancé their war indefinitely, that doesn’t make any sense at all.
The stronger Germany gets the weaker the British position will became and they will have to face the fact that Europe is now under the control of one power.
 
The idea in this book (I mentioned it in another thread today as well), seems one of the most reasonable; http://www.alternatehistorybooks.com/p1_books_if_hitler_had_won.php

Basically
- The Germans link up with Finns in Sept 1941, completing cutting off Leningrad (no supplies over frozen lakes).

Winter 41/1942 goes pretty much the same.

Operation Blue goes mostly the same, but in Autumn 42, Leningrad falls (the Germans did launch an attack in Leningrad area around this time). This frees up a big chunk of AG North forces to be sent to the South.

When Germans in Stalingrad is cut-off, the reinforcements from AG North are enough to turn the tide on Operation Uranus, Soviets eventually get defeated in mobile warfare.

IN 43, AG North, and forces from Stalingrad close in on Moscow. Renewed attacks towards Baku as well. Good night USSR west of the Urals.... etc.
 

Redbeard

Banned
There is idea going around that the Germans would have colonized European Russia if they won the war.
That is just not possible.
Yes Hitler want to but who in Germany apart from the hard core Nazis is willing to leave life in Germany to settle in Russia?
If Hitler forces the German people to move he will lose his popularity and will risk assassination by the German army which was trying to get rid of him for a along time and now will have the perfect opportunity.
So the most realistic scenario of post war Germany is Germany gets Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland, the Baltic states, some parts of northeast France, parts of Denmark (border 1914), parts of Slovenia.
Russia, Ukraine, France, Slovakia will be client states.
Crimea and the Caucasus region will be colonies.
For all this to work Germany after defeating France needs to focus on organizing its air defenses, keeping Italy from escalating the war in the Mediterranean and prepare a more realistic plan for defeating USSR without alienating it’s the native population.
Al long as Germany keeps a low profile in the north Atlantic and wages war in a more sanitized way, confines itself with deporting the Jews form the Germany itself but not from the rest of the German controlled territories US is not going to declare war or intervene in Europe.
As for GB there is a general consensus that GB will bring Germany down at all costs that they will get US to declare war, give them an atomic weapon, fiancé their war indefinitely, that doesn’t make any sense at all.
The stronger Germany gets the weaker the British position will became and they will have to face the fact that Europe is now under the control of one power.

During WWII the Germans recruited thousands from occupied territories for the SS, not at least by promising them land in the conquerred territories in the east - after the war (incl. thousands of Danes, actually more Danes fought in the SS than were (combat) active in the resistance). Not in the American settler way - a family traveling west and through hard work cultivating the prarie - but as Lords over an estate with your own personal slaves etc. - the size of the realm/househould depending on your rank.

In that context I could imagine Germans queing to become "Lords", and a problem being that many would be more interested in breeding (with the household) than cultivating the land...:rolleyes:

But it certainly would be no fun for the Russians, Hitler probaly was deadly serious when mentioning that the Soviet cities and their populations should be literally deleted. Moscow area was to transformed into a huge lake...:eek:

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Das Hauptplan

Maybe this will work:
Co-operation with Finland and Baltic countries (if possible) from the mid 1930's at least, so when Stalin starts war in Karelia, it ties much more of his troops. This needs cunning plan with Ribbentrop, but I think it is possible. So
when the Winter war starts, there will be Me 109's and Ju 88's in Finnish inventory, and maybe unit or two Sturms. Also, the co-operation to manufacture s-boats and little subs in Finland may be helpful.
Second, the invasion of Poland was stupid mistake, not the operation itself but the execution. The Molotov -Ribbentrop pact was useful when using right way. Somehow it will be possible to let the Stalin and soviets think that Germany and its allies are invading Poland with full force, and WHOLE Poland.
And when the soviet forces rush to get their share, the trap will be ready.
Poland has fought with soviets in 1920's, so I think it will be possible to arm polish army and their air force at least, with co-operation with the
polish of course.
Third, assembly-lines to most factories, the proper treatment of citizens and plentiful support to science, the list is long...
 
Alternate Nazi History

Can I point you in the direction of "Hitler: The Victory that Nearly Was" by Bruce Quarrie (I think).

The POD is a delay in launching Barabrossa until April 1942 and a successful German parachute invasion of Malta in July 1941.

The scenario continues that with Malta secure in Axis hands, German and Italian convoys suffer many fewer losses crossing to North Africa while the allies are effectively divided between Gibraltar and Cyprus.

With additional tanks and supplies, Rommel is able to defeat the British in North Africa in December 1941 and conquer Egypt before moving on to conquer Palestine and the rest of the Middle East.

Barbarossa is launched in late April 1942 and is as spectacularly successful as it was initially in OTL. In addition, the Panzer Armee Naher Osten launches its assault on Iran.

You can pretty much guess the rest...the Axis forces link up in the spring of 1943 and with Moscow set to fall, Beria engineers a coup, killing Stalin and seeking terms with the Germans.

On another front, following the defeats in North America, Walter Schellenberg is sent to Bermuda to enlist the support of the former Edward VIII in an attempt to broker peace with Britain. This succeeds and in August 1942 Britain sues for peace - Edward is restored to the throne, Churchill exiled and German troops land unopposed.

Pearl Harbour is delayed until December 1942 but with the Germans in control of Singapore and Hong Kong, the Japanese concentrate on American targets.

The German occupation of Britain yields valuable information about the development of an atomic bomb and the Germans are able to destroy Long Island with an atom bomb mounted in a V-2 rocket in late 1943. Roosevelt has no option but to surrender.

For your purposes, I would have Pearl Harbour happening as it does in OTL but the key British scientists and scientific developments are brought to America before the Germans invade.

The Germans and Americans both explode nuclear devices in the summer oif 1945 leading to a new bi-polar world once the Americans have defeated the Japanese.
 
There is idea going around that the Germans would have colonized European Russia if they won the war.
That is just not possible.
Yes Hitler want to but who in Germany apart from the hard core Nazis is willing to leave life in Germany to settle in Russia?

I think the point is that with German families churning out a dozen kids each it will only be a matter of time before poland and former parts of the USSR will be colonised.
 
What is conveniently forgotten is that Nazi Germany was broke from 1942 on. As soon as Hitler ran out of countries to invade and gold stocks to loot the collapse was imminent. A victory would just postpone it for a year or two.
 
sl

As I said Crimea and the Caucasus region will be German colonies (better climate).
If Germany wants to win the war it has to treat Russians better, so no colonization of Russia.
 
The only way is IMO to have a war on the Eastern Front from '41 on -

For this to happen - peace with Britain in 1940 - yes I know its unlikely but given that it does - perhaps with a worse Dunkirk and Churchill has had a heart-attack!

Now, Germany has a freer hand,

- less resistance in the occupied territories,
- assign Rommel to Army Group South,
- Luftwaffe in a better position with no Bob losses to worry about,
- no lend lease for the Russians,
- more raw material available for AFV production,
- while the start-day may not be as early as originally planned, it wouldn't be as late - with fewer distractions,
- with no outside support Stalin is in a 'state-of-shock' for longer,

Leningrad falls in mid-july, followed by Smollensk, in a great enveloping move by Rommel & Kleist Kiev was taken in August, meanwhile in the Centre Guderian & Hoth launched their assault on Moscow - assisted by Hoepner from the North. After much fighting by the NKVD and Russian Army it fell. For for a short time the Russians established a government in Gorki - but not for long. While in the south Kleist & Rommel raced for Rostock.

Germany can only win with victory in the East, if it didn't invade - Stalin would, but to achieve victory Germany needs no Western Front. Morever peace (however unlikely) means no war with the US.
 
s

If Hitler doesn’t declare war on US and keeps a limited war on the north Atlantic against the British he wins the war.
 
If Hitler doesn’t declare war on US and keeps a limited war on the north Atlantic against the British he wins the war.

Highly doubtful. For one thing the US will probably come in sooner or later. Foe another just because Germany wants a limited war with Britain doesn't mean Britain will give them that.;)

Steve
 

Jomazi

Banned
Forget a puppet Czar. Though that regime ended some two and a half decades earlier there is no way the Russians would've forgotten enough of the hardships they were put through to embrace its return.

Also forget rallying the Russians against Stalin. For this to happen, Nazi ideology must be changed, and this could be done (latest) while Hitler wrote Mein Kampf in 1924. Having stated, and having the SS as well as the average Germans believing that slavs were "üntermensch" does not go very well with rallying the same people against Stalin.
 
Top