Nazi victory: what happens to the Empire?

[BlackMage]

Note that I'm not mentioning the dreaded 'S' word here; it has been explained many, many times, in all different itinerations, why that particular operation was impossible.

But supposing that Britain is forced into an armistice. A Dunkirk POD, or a defeat during the Battle of Britain, is possible. If morale sinks low enough, and Churchill is toppled, it may become inevitable. A quisling government is set up, and the war is over. You can even make Edward VII King again. (Or Prime Minister; that's always been an option that, despite its manifest problems, is strangely compelling)

My question is: what happens to the Dominions once Britain throws in the towel?

Some of the colonies would probably follow the new quisling regime after Britain sign an armistice. Would there be a Free Britain movement, though, if British territorial sovereingty was not directly imperilled? Would the Dominions really be so eager to pursue a war they clearly can't win on their own? How would this affect the internal politics of the self-governing dominions?

In short, if Britain sign an armistice, what happens next?

 

[CCA]

Note that I'm not mentioning the dreaded 'S' word here; it has been explained many, many times, in all different itinerations, why that particular operation was impossible.

But supposing that Britain is forced into an armistice. A Dunkirk POD, or a defeat during the Battle of Britain, is possible. If morale sinks low enough, and Churchill is toppled, it may become inevitable. A quisling government is set up, and the war is over. You can even make Edward VII King again. (Or Prime Minister; that's always been an option that, despite its manifest problems, is strangely compelling)

My question is: what happens to the Dominions once Britain throws in the towel?

Some of the colonies would probably follow the new quisling regime after Britain sign an armistice. Would there be a Free Britain movement, though, if British territorial sovereingty was not directly imperilled? Would the Dominions really be so eager to pursue a war they clearly can't win on their own? How would this affect the internal politics of the self-governing dominions?

In short, if Britain sign an armistice, what happens next?

Probably the US invades a few outlying British Colonies to "protect" them like in OTL Iceland

 

[Max Sinister]

If Britain doesn't have to fight a long, costly war, they could keep the empire together. At least for some time, because I expect that the independent movements will rise their heads (in India they did already, after all). And they still have to fight Japan, which is better than fighting Germany, Italy AND Japan, but still. And Hitler was the kind of man who never gets enough - even if he manages to get his Greater Germanic Reich from the Atlantic to the Urals, he could still decide that Germany needs a big colonial empire, at Britain's expense.

 

[BlackMage]

Well, would the Dominions be satisfied to remain part of an empire appeasing the Nazis? Would people just carry on 'business as usual' in the Empire, pretending that nothing's changed?

@CCA: Well, where could the US invade? Some of the Caribbean territories, maybe, but the rest would have to be done through consensus. It's possible that Canada and Australia could 'invite' US troops in, if they decide to leave the Empire, but a non-consentual invasion would be hugely costly for both sides.

 

[Syphon]

Well I'd see South Africa falling into the Nazi sphere of influence as they had similar racial views.

Australia and Canada jump ito bed with the yanks quicker than you can blink.

India goes independent but will break into civil war and the Princes and the religious groups vie for power.

The rest of Africa goes down the toilet faster then you can blink far too many problems and with out the empire keeping them on the straight and narrow, tribal warfare follows.

 

[Adam]

Would it be possible for Nazi Germany to 'nazify' America (basically, NOT invade but turn it into another dystopian regime) in such a scenario, ASSUMING they don't break down in anarchy within ten years?

 

[Agentdark]

I doubt Germany would be able Nazify America.,....

 

[Max Sinister]

He means not that they actually invade the US (he explicitly said it), but that America will become less democratic and more fascist (not necessarily like Italy or Austria, but more fascist than ever IOTL), because of the changed situation of the world. But that's the question: The success of Communism didn't make the US move left, on the contrary. Maybe the US become more Social Democratic instead? More multi-cultural, more tolerance for minorities, more against big business. They might still be very religious and see the value of a strong military.

 

[Dave Howery]

an armistice? Would this lead to a Nazi occupation of Britain? I'd think an armistice would be more of a mutual agreeing to end the war, not something like the conquest of France....

 

[ninebucks]

Arabia would allign itself with the Nazis very quickly, forming a fascist Arab Union.

India would be more interesting, I think its possible that the Nazis would be able to pull together some sort of Nazi Raj, with the majority of the princely states uniting in allegiance to Berlin, however, large swathes of the subcontinent will remain de facto independent (not including the portions occupied by Japan), and the massive Marxist resistance would be omnipresent.

The African colonies would likely be abandoned. Hitler has to concentrate on defeating the Soviet Union (which he know has a chance to do, seeing as he know has a southern front), and has no time to concern himself with an entire continent of untermensch. South Africa would probably attempt to maintain its neutrality (apartheid is not yet an ideological position, just a series of racist habits, SA is at this time much more mercantile, and will not jeopardise its future by alligning itself into any dangerous alliances).

The USA would quickly step in as protector of the British possessions within its sphere of influence.

 

[zoomar]

Didn't Hitler's actual 1940 armistice offers essentially promise England she could keep her empire and fleet in exchange for a free hand in Europe? Although it is very resonable to presume he may within a few years decide to change his mind, in this TL we should presume the armistice per se involves neither an occupation of Britain nor any loss of colonial territories.

Personally, as long as Hitler keeps to his word I see no reason any of the self-governing dominions would split from the UK any more than they already did. Also, I would imagine places like Canada, Australia, and New Zealand would be mighty glad they don't have to send their young men to Africa or whatever to fight England's European war - which might actually delay any possible rise of anti-British sentiment.

Also, no matter how much whatever British govenment that signs the armistice is motivated by appeasment and even pro-axis collaborationist sentiment, it is hard to imagine they would go into this without solid planning for the probable Nazi double cross (ie, establish secret ties with the US or USSR, plans to immediately move to Canada, secret military buildups, etc).

And there is the Japan situation. Presumably an armistice with Hitler would have no bearing on what happens in asia. Britian would be free to defend its asian dominions from Japanese aggression - possibly in open alliance with the USA.

The final issue would be an internal conflict in Britain between supporters and opponents of the armistice. It would not be a stretch to see Churchill and other "war hawks" seek to establish an bitter opposition group in parliament and perhaps even plan to set up a parallel government "in exile" (in Canada, perhaps) to continue the war. If by chance events do not butterfly away Pearl Harbor and Hitler's foolish declaration of war against the USA in 1941, this could lead to a virtual civil war in the British Empire and an attempt at German occupation of the home islands to forestall an eventual alliance between Britain and the USA against Germany.

 

[Dave Howery]

one wonders too just what the armistice would do for military R&D... will Britain develop those jets it was working on? Better and bigger tanks? What else might go on the drawing board?

 

[MrP]

one wonders too just what the armistice would do for military R&D... will Britain develop those jets it was working on? Better and bigger tanks? What else might go on the drawing board?

Well, potentially, such an armistice could seriously fuck over the IJN, as well as lead to that Holy Grail of us naval enthusiasts - WWII Battleship on Battleship conflict.

 

[Wozza]

Andrew Roberts discusses the Halifax makes peace with Hitler scenario in an AH book. The empire survives and beats off the Japanese, but Hitler is eventually defeated by the Soviets, and the last line is about them developing the Bomb first.

The scenario the British might have to face is being dragged into the fighting on the Eastern Front, this would be bad news.

It is certainly not beyond the bounds of possibility that the British would build up their strength and stab the Germans in the back first, that would be interesting.

One can only really envisage the Empire collapsing in the fact of actual invasion of Britain, and even then not necessarily, the other Empires stayed together after all. The Dominions would drift to the US, but with no US-German war for the time being this need not be a particularly overt choice.

 

[Dave Howery]

Well, potentially, such an armistice could seriously fuck over the IJN, as well as lead to that Holy Grail of us naval enthusiasts - WWII Battleship on Battleship conflict.

how do you figure this? The japanese, brits, and americans all have front line carrier forces in the pacific....

 

[MrP]

how do you figure this? The japanese, brits, and americans all have front line carrier forces in the pacific....

Oh, that's very true. However, all sides also have battleship forces of some military worth. It'd be very odd if they didn't get used at some point . . .

 

[zoomar]

Oh, you mean the August 23, 1943 Battle of Singapore, in which a massive joint US and British surface force defeated the Japanese main battlefleet consisting of Musashi, Nagato, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima, Fuso, Ise, and Yamashiro, supplimented by a Vichy squadron including Strasbourg and Dunquerque and several older ships, breaking the seige of Singapore and leading to the collapse of the Japanese government in December?

 

[MrP]

Oh, you mean the August 23, 1943 Battle of Singapore, in which a massive joint US and British surface force defeated the Japanese main battlefleet consisting of Musashi, Nagato, Hiei, Haruna, Kirishima, Fuso, Ise, and Yamashiro, supplimented by a Vichy squadron including Strasbourg and Dunquerque and several older ships, breaking the seige of Singapore and leading to the collapse of the Japanese government in December?

Ooh, say it again . . .

 

[BlackMage]

Sorry to bump a thread three pages down, but I've had a thought:

If a Free Britain, or something like that, was established, with Churchill and his ilk fleeing to Canada (as is generally done in these things) to carry on the fight, how would the Nazis respond?

It's not like they can invade Canada, or Australia, or indeed any colony which declares for Free Britain (probably most of the Dominions) What form would such a war take? Would ceasefire ever be possible (since Free Britain's existence is based on continuing the fight with the Nazis)? Could we see conflict within the Free British territories in favour of reuniting with the British quisling government, especially from more conservative elements in society?

 

[Grey Wolf]

Sorry to bump a thread three pages down, but I've had a thought:

If a Free Britain, or something like that, was established, with Churchill and his ilk fleeing to Canada (as is generally done in these things) to carry on the fight, how would the Nazis respond?

It's not like they can invade Canada, or Australia, or indeed any colony which declares for Free Britain (probably most of the Dominions) What form would such a war take? Would ceasefire ever be possible (since Free Britain's existence is based on continuing the fight with the Nazis)? Could we see conflict within the Free British territories in favour of reuniting with the British quisling government, especially from more conservative elements in society?

Ah, a thread after the heart of one of my new ones

I've argued in one of my new ones that Australia and New Zealand would be forced to accept (probably quite willingly accept) US strategic control in the Pacific in a war against the Japanese

I also think that the Japanese would move in on Malaya and N Borneo as they did with Indo-China, taking advantage of sudden British chaos

I think India would end up with a strange kind of schizophrenia, defending British interests in Burma, whilst undergoing a political revolution internally that may have to see some kind of self-government during the war

Canada's fate may be tied to whatever Britain's is in this scenario - if a puppet then Canada is the puppy of the puppet, if a 'Free Britain' movement survives than Canada makes sense as a base for its supply and support. The USA may refuse to see the king in N America, Len Deighton certainly thinks so in 'SS - GB' tho' he also says it may be a bargaining ploy, refusing so as to get more. But if they do refuse, then it would seem that one of the West Indies makes sense perhaps.

If there's a puppet with enough legitimacy, or gaining enough legitimacy by its longevity, you may well see the growth of conflict within colonies and dominions as to whether to ditch the 'official' government and recognise London, and thus bring about a resolution of confusion in that way

Best Regards
Grey Wolf