Nazi Victory Scenario: What happens to Russia?

So could this be a potential outcome? Germany turning Ukraine and Belarus into lebensraum while turning the rest into a puppet Russian Empire controlled by Nazi Collaborators and white Russian allies?

Nope. That admiration of the Russian ruling class was based on the supposition that they were German, or otherwise racially different from the Bestial Slavs, who had since the revolution of course been under the insidious control of the Commie Jews. As a class they had been destroyed: either they were dead, or they were in exile and out of the picture, or they had rebuilt their lives and were now ordinary members of Soviet society who were going to be worked to death as slaves, shot out of hand, or deliberately starved same as the rest.

And remember that the Nazis believed in a sick 'Darwinist' idea of human history with peoples battling for supremacy. They admired Britain for trampling smaller peoples and establishing a world empire, but that doesn't mean they got on well with us.

And they respected Soviet collaborators enough to shoot them whenever they felt like it: several hundred OUN organisers were shot at Babi Yar for suggesting that Ukrainians were people.
 
I have a hard time believing that the Reich could really get as far as the Urals. The further they go, the longer their logistical train becomes and the more partisans they have to face. European Russia had like over 1.5 times the population of Germany, a massive pool to recruit from, especially considering they are desperate and know the fate awaiting them. The taking of Leningrad and Moscow would be feasible, but I doubt the Nazis could get much farther than that, since the Russians, having relocated their factories to the Urals, would keep producing heavy weapons and in this way be capable of seriously challenging German dominance in the contested region (pretty much everything east of Moscow and west of the Urals), a task which would be supported by the Allies through shipments to Vladivostok.

A comparable situation would be that of the KMT's NRA, which had lost China's main industrial and urban centers to the Japanese, but still kept on fighting with the help of partisans and having their base located in unreachable land.
 
I have a hard time believing that the Reich could really get as far as the Urals. The further they go, the longer their logistical train becomes and the more partisans they have to face. European Russia had like over 1.5 times the population of Germany, a massive pool to recruit from, especially considering they are desperate and know the fate awaiting them. The taking of Leningrad and Moscow would be feasible, but I doubt the Nazis could get much farther than that, since the Russians, having relocated their factories to the Urals, would keep producing heavy weapons and in this way be capable of seriously challenging German dominance in the contested region (pretty much everything east of Moscow and west of the Urals), a task which would be supported by the Allies through shipments to Vladivostok.

A comparable situation would be that of the KMT's NRA, which had lost China's main industrial and urban centers to the Japanese, but still kept on fighting with the help of partisans and having their base located in unreachable land.
Once again the whole point is not how they are able to do it, but what they would be able to do and what they planned to do to Russia-Past-the Urals.
 
Once again the whole point is not how they are able to do it, but what they would be able to do and what they planned to do to Russia-Past-the Urals.

But that's boring and CalBear's TL pretty much explains it as well as can be. Pretty much every single Axis-Victory TL has a rump Soviet state with the Großdeutsches Reich extending to the Urals.
 
But that's boring and CalBear's TL pretty much negates the need for this thread. Pretty much every single Axis-Victory TL has a rump Soviet state with the Großdeutsches Reich extending to the Urals.
As I stated before I have never read A-ANW. And the topic is allowed to be discussed outside of the greatly valued TL.
 
As I stated before I have never read A-ANW. And the topic is allowed to be discussed outside of the greatly valued TL.
Then someone already explained it here.

To which I should add: A combination of not enough Germans to repopulate the vast area and the fact that there are too many Russians from which partisans can and will be recruited will make the Lebensraum a lot less worthwhile than Hitler would've liked.

Even if the Germans did get all the way to the Urals and made a tributary state of the rump USSR, it's almost certain that the Western powers will be supplying the partisans will all sorts of dangerous weapons. If the Germans do manage to kill off most of the Slavs then they won't have any slaves left and the only surviving Russians will be partisans hiding in the vastness of the land which also defeats the purpose of Lebensraum.
 
Even if the Nazis won a war in Russia, there's also the talk of the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line, a line that is supposed to divide the Reich from the rump USSR. There's a lot of bizzare things I've come across regarding Nazi plans, and one of them involved a Nazi plan for North America. There's also the partitioning of the defeated USSR between Germany and Japan as well. Also, does anyone know a movie called Der Kaiser von Kalifornien?
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Humanitarian tragedy aside, most of the lebensraum will be an economic deadweight for Germany. By exterminating and enserfing most the slavic population, what was once productive land becomes worthless. This is to say nothing about the regions industrial infrastructure or extraction industries. I find it doubtful that enough "Germans" can be compelled to swear off the benefits of modernity to homestead in the wild and untamed east.

Is it just me, or do the agricultural settlements seem geared to spread a romanticized racial version of the Junker system across all of European Russia?

Its not just you. The Nazi goal was to rule over a vast number of serfs, with the subject races (happily I might add, as bizarre as it sounds, after an adjustment period) doing the work and the Ayrans doing the thinking. In a way it was meant to be a (per)version of the British system in the Raj as filtered by a bigoted madman.

The Nazis had already figured out where they would get many of the early settlers. They were to be ethnic Germans from the conquered territories who would be "excess" in the Reich and hardy Wehrmacht veterans who would be able to control the servant class. Officers were to get large plantations or mines, the size based on rank and quality of service, NCO would get smaller plantations, and Landsers would get farms. Party members and officials would get postions running manufacturing sites and businesses. Ethnic Germans would be the small merchant class and tradesmen. Women would be baby machines joyfully raising baseball or football team size broods.
 

whitecrow

Banned
Nope. That admiration of the Russian ruling class was based on the supposition that they were German, or otherwise racially different from the Bestial Slavs, who had since the revolution of course been under the insidious control of the Commie Jews. As a class they had been destroyed: either they were dead, or they were in exile and out of the picture, or they had rebuilt their lives and were now ordinary members of Soviet society who were going to be worked to death as slaves, shot out of hand, or deliberately starved same as the rest.
So what did Nazis think of the White Russians that ended up living in Germany after the Civil War? Exiled Ayran nobles or subhumans? And what were the Nazi post-war plans for them?
 

BlondieBC

Banned
So what did Nazis think of the White Russians that ended up living in Germany after the Civil War? Exiled Ayran nobles or subhumans? And what were the Nazi post-war plans for them?

The Germans had theories on what an Aryan. This includes the blond hair and blue eyes, but also include skull measurements. They would have compared a person to the Aryan ideal, and if close enough, he would be a German.
 
So what did Nazis think of the White Russians that ended up living in Germany after the Civil War? Exiled Ayran nobles or subhumans? And what were the Nazi post-war plans for them?

The Nazis were a regime made up of humans, with all the forgetfulness, laziness, and inconsistency that implies, and they didn't actually have a racial master-plan (there are a few cases, IIRC, of Afro-Berliners being conscripted and serving in the Wehrmacht because nobody could be bpthered about them; whereas in the Rhine, black people were supposed to be the children of French soldiers, which they often were, and persecuted by the gauleiters). The pseudo-science was a gloss on their social darwinist stuff and desire for a colonial empire but they didn't feel constricted by it: they has Slavic puppets and allies.

Whites in Belgrade, I know, were organised in an anti-partisan unit. For the smaller community in Germany, I imagine nobody paid them any attention while they kept their heads down.
 
Depending on how well the Nazi state survives the inherent dislocations of Hitler's death and what qualifies for a victory, at a bare minimum there will be 33 million dead Russians, probably quite a bit more, Moscow and Leningrad razed to the ground and all civilians in both cities killed, all Russian art stolen and put in the private collection of Nazi party bosses, attempts to de-industrialize Russia and undo Stalin's progress in the area where literacy is concerned. Added to this, the Germans would as they did everywhere else dynamite all non-German historical artifacts of note, including as they did historically doing things like treating Tolstoy's house as a stable, any slight sign of resistance would result in Babi Yars and Lidices, and added to this would be the infighting of Four Year Planners, the SS, and Bormann's faction among the Nazis, as well as the Wehrmacht as a fourth faction and possibly the Luftwaffe and its infantry arm (depending on when and how that victory's won) as a fifth.

Now, factor in as well the German restructuring of the economies of the rest of Europe, not just the USSR, as a pillage machine to support the Germans, meaning Hitler made Germans essentially parasites on the rest of Europe in the sense that they take everything valuable while contributing nothing of value (an ironic and deliberate choice of rhetoric, nothing more) and the resulting reprisals of a large-scale and savage nature that would result from any and all resistance to this, also including Nazi use of Slavs and even Jews as sex-slaves and you've got what happens with Nazi victory.

The Germans would loot and steal from Europe to shore up their rickety empire and at the first serious shock to the system after Hitler dies, if not when Hitler dies, this all goes to shit and then things get even uglier.

Heh, Hitler’s death is less of a problem than the fact the Nazi’s economic pyramid scheme was doomed to collapse long before the war started, never mind ended. Running both your peace & wartime economy on the printable of Moar Dakka! Isnt going to end well.

At some point the sheer cost of the eastern occupation (in economic terms it’d be a sucking chest wound for Germany) could raise the possibility of European Russia and some the Caucasian SSR’s being handed over to pliant puppet regimes.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
As I said already the Nazis would try to Germanize Belarus, Ukraine and European Russia + the Caucasus by forcing the original inhabitants to leave or in some cases just eliminate them. However the whole project would most likely fail. They wouldn't get enough German colonizers, so they'd start to force Germans to settle there, and they'd still probably not be able to get rid of all original inhabitants either. It would end in a big failure, and especially after Hitler's death the Reich would have no idea what they'll do with Russia. (And occupying such a huge area of land would be a constant drain on German resources).
 
'Probably not be able to get rid of the original inhabitants' is a phrase very comforting and never entered into in detail. It seems to suppose that this is an enormous upscale of the Jewish Holocaust, but in fact killing more than half of the Soviets has few of the logistic complications.

The Nazis had a plan for how to kill all the urban Soviets: not give them anything to eat. It would have required a military blockade of cities which was impossible under war-circumstances, so that both food-smuggling and mass-flight were possible and they only managed to kill a measly piddling one in five of people in the occupied territories.

But if the USSR is defeated, why shouldn't they go ahead with the Hunger Plan?
 
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