Nazi victory: Himmler vs Goering as Hitler's successor

Himmler vs Goering as Hitler's successor

  • Himmler

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • Goering

    Votes: 36 60.0%
  • It depends

    Votes: 23 38.3%

  • Total voters
    60

Wendigo

Banned
In a Nazi victory where the Reich controls Europe from France to the Urals (AANW) and have achieved a peace with the US and British (they aren't at war) if Hitler died within a decade of said victory who would he choose as his successor Himmler or Goering?

Which one was he fond of more?

What would be the successor's title? Fuhrer? President? Chancellor?

How difficult would it be to get the German people's devotion and ideological worship to Hitler and switch it over to whoever the next leader was?
 
Goering was the official guy in line, the only reason he was destitute was because he fled instead of staying in Berlin. In a Nazi victory, if he is still alive, Goering is the next in the succession line.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Göring (if he would have been able to become sober)

... beside being the 'official' heir of Adolf Hitlers position, he also had at least some popularity with the 'small men on the streets'. Something Hitler knew of. It was kind of division of labor :
Hitler was the god-like untouchable, the genius hovering above everything
Göring was 'König Lustig' (King Funny), people could identify with.

Himmler on the other side was too 'cool', too calculating, that Hitler would have made him heir. Himmler was the faithfull paladine, but that's it. Some of his ideas were even for Hitler too ... eccentric.
 

Himmler was very interested in the occult. He was a member of the Thule Society, which believed that the Aryan race had originated in a mystical land in the far north of Europe. He incorporated esoteric symbols and rituals into the SS. Himmler even tried to establish his own neo-pagan religious cult, which would have culminated in the building of a massive complex around the Wewelsburg Castle that would serve as the ideological capital of the SS.
 
Reviving the duchy of Burgundy and the flirt with Hinduism?


Anyway, Göring was a famous WWI war hero who actually could show human emotions and was officially the heir to the position of Führer.

Himmler was an eccentric sociopath who was hated by military, despised by the party and obscure to the people.
 
Himmler was an eccentric sociopath who was hated by military, despised by the party and obscure to the people.

While Himmler wasn't the most popular Nazi, could he turn the SS into a major player of the Reich? He would have created an economic empire with his cheap slave labour to loan or use, factories in the West and landed estates and SS colonies in the East, along with the fact they were highly organisated body of men.
 
While Himmler wasn't the most popular Nazi, could he turn the SS into a major player of the Reich? He would have created an economic empire with his cheap slave labour to loan or use, factories in the West and landed estates and SS colonies in the East, along with the fact they were highly organisated body of men.


While he could become a major player he doesn't really have a chance to become Führer if his opponent is Göring or somebody else who isn't obviously insane. The SS only became the powerful force rivaling the military and controlling parts of the party after the July 20th coup attempt, which won't happen in a Nazi victory scenario.

The Wehrmacht is still the sole uncontested fighting force, the Abwehr won't be absorbed by the SD and the Gauleiter enjoy a lot more independence.
 

Wendigo

Banned
The SS only became the powerful force rivaling the military and controlling parts of the party after the July 20th coup attempt, which won't happen in a Nazi victory scenario.

The Wehrmacht is still the sole uncontested fighting force, the Abwehr won't be absorbed by the SD and the Gauleiter enjoy a lot more independence.
I'm basing a lot of this off CalBear's AANW but wasn't it Hitler's goal even before 1944 to create and establish a Wehrmacht that was entirely Nazified with an indoctrinated/ideologically devoted Officer Corps, NCOs, and enlisted troops who were raised from the cradle in Nazi doctrine and graduated from the Hitler Youth?

If the Reich won the war the Wehrmacht would shrink greatly as a significant amount of soldiers would retire for good or return to civilian life and civilian work. A post war Wehrmacht wouldn't be as large as it was during the war. What's stopping Hitler from simply using this period to remove and retire those officers and generals who aren't politically reliable enough and aren't sufficiently devoted to National Socialism and replacing them with those who ARE fanatics and devoted to Hitler and the Party? Nothing really.

I don't see it as the Waffen SS replaces the Wehrmacht but as they merge together with the result being a completely Nazified from top to bottom armed force almost entirely full of troops and officers who may not be professionals in the Manstein/Guderian sense but are chosen for their beliefs and adherence to Nazi doctrine (racism, Social Darwinism, devotion to Hitler etc).

If after the war Hitler retires Manstein for example, what is Manstein feasibly going to do? He can try to subvert the Fuhrer's will or let it go and live the rest of his life in peaceful luxury off a pension in an estate in Poland. Would he really try to overthrow Hitler who in the public's mind has defeated the USSR and held the Jewish run Anglo Americans at bay and is responsible for the unprecedented conquest of Europe from France to the Urals simply because he doesn't have a job anymore?

Which would your average professional German officer do if given that choice?

How many officers and NCOs would seriously contemplate organising a coup against a victorious Reich with Hitler and the Nazi Party enjoying almost complete approval from the population?

Which is the more reasonable decision given the circumstances?

Remember the cost of a failed coup or a coup plot that gets uncovered. You're going to be tortured and brutally executed and your family is going to be sent to a concentration camp. If I had a choice between retirement and treason with a high likelihood of torture and death for myself and my loved ones, I'd take retirement and my pension and not make waves as it's pointless and unnecessarily risky.
 
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While Himmler wasn't the most popular Nazi, could he turn the SS into a major player of the Reich? He would have created an economic empire with his cheap slave labour to loan or use, factories in the West and landed estates and SS colonies in the East, along with the fact they were highly organisated body of men.

However I would say Himmler's biggest weakness was the army's distrust of the SS and they would prove influential in deciding the next leader.
 
A lot depends on how the war is won and when Hitler dies. Göring will be more popular with the military as a whole if the Allied bombing campaign never amounts to much and/or the Luftwaffe continues to provide good support to the Wehrmacht. On the other hand he has a major drug problem and a very unhealthy lifestyle which could addle him so as not to be acceptable to anyone, or he could even predecease Hitler. Someone mentioned Borman, he was essentially a faceless figure for most of the German population with no base.

In a Nazi victory scenario the SS is going to become more of a power as time goes by and the younger generations come to age fully indoctrinated which is reinforced by victory. If the Heer and the Waffen-SS are merged with the SS having a good deal of influence (and perhaps some system of "political officers" or other means of enforcing political correctness), then the "traditional" army's influence is decreased. If Hitler's death is not sudden but following a period of decline, there will be a lot of maneuvering and frankly with the SS apparatus and the Waffen-SS Himmler has a real advantage here (the Luftwaffe and its resources will count less here).

I could see a scenario where Göring is pressured by Himmler and told if he declines to take over "I am not able to fulfill all these duties" he gets to live in Karinhall, perhaps keep the Luftwaffe, as opposed to trying to fight and ending up having a "stroke" or similar.
 
A lot depends on how the war is won and when Hitler dies. Göring will be more popular with the military as a whole if the Allied bombing campaign never amounts to much and/or the Luftwaffe continues to provide good support to the Wehrmacht. On the other hand he has a major drug problem and a very unhealthy lifestyle which could addle him so as not to be acceptable to anyone, or he could even predecease Hitler. Someone mentioned Borman, he was essentially a faceless figure for most of the German population with no base.

In a Nazi victory scenario the SS is going to become more of a power as time goes by and the younger generations come to age fully indoctrinated which is reinforced by victory. If the Heer and the Waffen-SS are merged with the SS having a good deal of influence (and perhaps some system of "political officers" or other means of enforcing political correctness), then the "traditional" army's influence is decreased. If Hitler's death is not sudden but following a period of decline, there will be a lot of maneuvering and frankly with the SS apparatus and the Waffen-SS Himmler has a real advantage here (the Luftwaffe and its resources will count less here).

I could see a scenario where Göring is pressured by Himmler and told if he declines to take over "I am not able to fulfill all these duties" he gets to live in Karinhall, perhaps keep the Luftwaffe, as opposed to trying to fight and ending up having a "stroke" or similar.
 
A lot depends on how the war is won and when Hitler dies. Göring will be more popular with the military as a whole if the Allied bombing campaign never amounts to much and/or the Luftwaffe continues to provide good support to the Wehrmacht. On the other hand he has a major drug problem and a very unhealthy lifestyle which could addle him so as not to be acceptable to anyone, or he could even predecease Hitler. Someone mentioned Borman, he was essentially a faceless figure for most of the German population with no base.

In a Nazi victory scenario the SS is going to become more of a power as time goes by and the younger generations come to age fully indoctrinated which is reinforced by victory. If the Heer and the Waffen-SS are merged with the SS having a good deal of influence (and perhaps some system of "political officers" or other means of enforcing political correctness), then the "traditional" army's influence is decreased. If Hitler's death is not sudden but following a period of decline, there will be a lot of maneuvering and frankly with the SS apparatus and the Waffen-SS Himmler has a real advantage here (the Luftwaffe and its resources will count less here).

I could see a scenario where Göring is pressured by Himmler and told if he declines to take over "I am not able to fulfill all these duties" he gets to live in Karinhall, perhaps keep the Luftwaffe, as opposed to trying to fight and ending up having a "stroke" or similar.
 
In a war won by the Third Reich, Heydrich might still be alive. Ruthless and intelligent, a shrewd operator. My money would be on him.
 
It would be interesting to see the effects of Göring. Wasn't he one of the men at the top least committed to Nazi ideology, and just really an opportunist who used his position to enrich himself? If he were to inherit the Reich, he might soften some of the extermination laws, not so much out of empathy, but rather because it would make more economic sense. With him at the helm, does the Third Reich just become another rightist dictatorship?
 
Göring (if he would have been able to become sober)

... beside being the 'official' heir of Adolf Hitlers position, he also had at least some popularity with the 'small men on the streets'. Something Hitler knew of. It was kind of division of labor :
Hitler was the god-like untouchable, the genius hovering above everything
Göring was 'König Lustig' (King Funny), people could identify with.
Sounds rather like the John Prescott of the Nazi Party :p
 
Göring (if he would have been able to become sober)

... beside being the 'official' heir of Adolf Hitlers position, he also had at least some popularity with the 'small men on the streets'. Something Hitler knew of. It was kind of division of labor :
Hitler was the god-like untouchable, the genius hovering above everything
Göring was 'König Lustig' (King Funny), people could identify with.
Sounds rather like the John Prescott of the Nazi Party :p
 
Göring (if he would have been able to become sober)

... beside being the 'official' heir of Adolf Hitlers position, he also had at least some popularity with the 'small men on the streets'. Something Hitler knew of. It was kind of division of labor :
Hitler was the god-like untouchable, the genius hovering above everything
Göring was 'König Lustig' (King Funny), people could identify with.
Sounds rather like the John Prescott of the Nazi Party :p
 
It would be interesting to see the effects of Göring. Wasn't he one of the men at the top least committed to Nazi ideology, and just really an opportunist who used his position to enrich himself? If he were to inherit the Reich, he might soften some of the extermination laws, not so much out of empathy, but rather because it would make more economic sense. With him at the helm, does the Third Reich just become another rightist dictatorship?


Well, yes. He covered for his brother multiple times, who was kind off like Schindler and saved thousands of Jews.
He was a cleptocrat who seized property from Jewish industrialists and art collectors but at the same time protected half Jewish officers under his command.

This makes him a bit worse than the ideological Nazis because he knew that what they were doing was wrong and bullshit.
 

Wendigo

Banned
This makes him a bit worse than the ideological Nazis because he knew that what they were doing was wrong and bullshit.
I wouldn't say that. Goering for all intents and purposes was a committed Nazi and did share many of the same beliefs that Hitler and the rest of his inner circle did. He may not have been as anti semitic but he was most likely as racist.

Here's a link that goes in depth with documentation about what war crimes and atrocities Goering was involved in such as slave labor and Luftwaffe medical experiments conducted on concentration camp inmates:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/nca/nca-02/nca-02-16-01-index.html

Here are some quotes from Goering:

This year between twenty and thirty million people will die of hunger in Russia. Perhaps it is well that it should be so, for certain peoples must be decimated.

In the camps for Russian prisoners of war, after having eaten everything possible, including the soles of their boots, they have begun to eat each other, and what is more serious, have also eaten a German sentry.

God has created the races. He did not want equality and therefore we energetically reject any attempt to falsify the concept of race purity by making it equivalent with racial equality. This equality does not exist. We have never accepted such an idea and therefore we must reject it in our laws likewise and must accept that purity of race which nature and providence have destined for us.

The best thing would be to kill all men in the Ukraine over fifteen years of age, and then to send in the SS stallions.

My measures will not be crippled by any bureaucracy. Here I don't have to worry about justice; my mission is only to destroy and to exterminate; nothing more.

The Russians are primitive folk. Besides, Bolshevism is something that stifles individualism and which is against my inner nature. Bolshevism is worse than National Socialism — in fact, it can't be compared to it. Bolshevism is against private property, and I am all in favor of private property. Bolshevism is barbaric and crude, and I am fully convinced that that atrocities committed by the Nazis, which incidentally I knew nothing about, were not nearly as great or as cruel as those committed by the Communists. I hate the Communists bitterly because I hate the system. The delusion that all men are equal is ridiculous. I feel that I am superior to most Russians, not only because I am a German but because my cultural and family background are superior. How ironic it is that crude Russian peasants who wear the uniforms of generals now sit in judgment on me. No matter how educated a Russian might be, he is still a barbaric Asiatic. Secondly, the Russian generals and the Russian government planned a war against Germany because we represented a threat to them ideologically. In the German state, I was the chief opponent of Communism. I admit freely and proudly that it was I who created the first concentration camps in order to put Communists in them. Did I ever tell you that funny story about how I sent to Spain a ship containing mainly bricks and stones, under which I put a single layer of ammunition which had been ordered by the Red government in Spain? The purpose of that ship was to supply the waning Red government with munitions. That was a good practical joke and I am proud of it because I wanted with all my heart to see Russian Communism in Spain defeated finally.
 
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