Nazi-Soviet Cold War

Homer

Riain said:
It woudn't matter that Goering was incompetent, Hitler was no model of competence either. What would matter is that the invasion of SU was tripped up at a crucial time, and didn't go ahead. This would ensure Germany remained a self-reliant superpower rivalling the SU and USA. Over the winter months of 1941-2 a proper leadership team could emerge, which could be satisifed with the gains up to April '41 plus whatever was taken from the Brits afterward.
Click to expand...

That's the whole idea about Göring being a "better leader". Nazis relied on the "Führerprinzip", thus an almighty leader decided all. Göring is weak and incompetent, and happy when just representing the ideology and getting cheered. Thus who rules the Reich during warfare?

1. Himmler has no idea about military and strategy and was also laughed at by the other Nazis
2. Goebbels has no idea about military and strategy, but is maybe the most fanatic one. Thus he'd want to ensure the Reich to live on, but he wouldn't be that involved in military decisions.
3. Borman: I don't know about his military skills. I think Borman would be the strong Nazi, the one that rules with Göring celebrating himself. But would he lead the warfare? No.
4. The Gnerals would do the main job. I think ITTL, with Hitler dead, the Generals would increase power, such as during WWI with a weak Kaiser unable to follow their ideas and oppose their plans. Additionally, Borman would rule the party and the state and support the Generals in a symbiotic relationship of winning the war and surviving Nazism. Goebbels would be the voice of this group, Himmler would sooner or later loose his power, since the Generals wouldn't accept a Waffen-SS, neither would they accept ressources taken away from the fighting troops to support the SS-agenda.
 

FlyingDutchman

Göring is weak and incompetent, and happy when just representing the ideology and getting cheered. Thus who rules the Reich during warfare?
Click to expand...
I think that the common view of Göring as a happy, fat, friendly, incompetent drugaddict is a bit wrong.
Don't forget that this is the man who started the Gestapo, set up the first concentrationcamps and managed to talk one of his American guards into slipping him a suicidepill.
Before the war Göring managed to appear friendly and moderate to the rest of the world while in reality he was as much of an extremist as any Nazi.

With Göring as a leader the Luftwaffe will be getting more $ than IRL at the cost of the army and navy. The German military is probably still better off with an ex-pilot for leader as Göring probably won't interfere too much with the army.
I think that the Third Reich is going to come furthest with either a non-drugs addicted Göring or perhaps even a Hess that doesn't fly to England.
 
Hapsburg

Hapsburg

Quite honestly, I think the Third Reich after Hitler would be a lot like the Galactic Empire in star wars: with a democidal absolutist ruler dead, and the empire is socially and politically divided into various factions vying for power, with the moderate military eventually coming out on top, and re-shaping the dictatorship into an oligarchy.
That's probably the most likely outcome, really, considering how weak and insane most of the Nazi leadership was, and how sane and rational many of the generals were.
 

luakel

Wendell said:
Horthy would not have alligned with the Soviet Union. Too much of his power depended upon being anticommunist, and the nation had bad memories of Bela Kun.
Click to expand...
Hm, Horthy didn't seem to have many problems with submitting to the Reds 5 years later. Besides, they both had claims on Romania.
 

Wendell

luakel said:
Hm, Horthy didn't seem to have many problems with submitting to the Reds 5 years later. Besides, they both had claims on Romania.
Click to expand...

Horthy was also trying to spare himself those five years later too;)

Furthermore, Hitler had managed to help Hungary to expand. The Soviet Union shrunk Hungary back to its 1935 size. The Russians did not care about the land claims of Hungary.
 

Homer

FlyingDutchman said:
I think that the common view of Göring as a happy, fat, friendly, incompetent drugaddict is a bit wrong.
Don't forget that this is the man who started the Gestapo, set up the first concentrationcamps and managed to talk one of his American guards into slipping him a suicidepill.
Before the war Göring managed to appear friendly and moderate to the rest of the world while in reality he was as much of an extremist as any Nazi.

With Göring as a leader the Luftwaffe will be getting more $ than IRL at the cost of the army and navy. The German military is probably still better off with an ex-pilot for leader as Göring probably won't interfere too much with the army.
I think that the Third Reich is going to come furthest with either a non-drugs addicted Göring or perhaps even a Hess that doesn't fly to England.
Click to expand...

OK, that's true.

But remember that Göring resumed old skills at Nuremburg because he lost its morphium-supply. ITTL, I think Göring would stay a drug addict, there'd be more than enough people in the new leadership which are more than happy with Göring staying weak and addicted. And I don't think that Görong could overcome his addiction on its own. After all, he could have quite a pleasant life as the ceremonial fuhrer with the generals and some nazis being the true leadership behind.
 

Strategos' Risk

It's a nice pat answer to just say "the generals" would govern post-Nazi militarist Germany, but who exactly would make up the group? The idea always inspires ideas of having all the black horse, noble, "nice inside but misled by that awful awful Hitler" figures be part of the ruling coterie- Guderian, Rommel, even Langsdorff, or the members of the Widerstand like Stauffenberg or Beck.

But who would really be ruling Germany?
 
Fenwick

Fenwick

I've always seen a Post war Nazi Germany as moderating the more radical elements. The gestapo gets a softer sounding name, the SS is slowly broken up into various organizations, and the Nazi party remains the center of the government but more invested in the military.

As for the government itself it would go...

President <-- Figurehead, maybe Goring, for it seems like something he would enjoy. Throw some big parties, and talk to heads of state. I could see this as the place for the Chancellor of Germany in his later years, kind of like retirement.

Riech Chancellor <-- head of the government, Head of the Nazi Party, I'll say Albert Speer, Hans Lammers or Martin Bormann each was close to Hitler, and compared to their more outlandish counterparts they where solid leaders from a government stand point.

Party Chancellor <-- assistant head of the nazi party in case something happens to the Riech Chancellor.
 

Wendell

Fenwick said:
I've always seen a Post war Nazi Germany as moderating the more radical elements. The gestapo gets a softer sounding name, the SS is slowly broken up into various organizations, and the Nazi party remains the center of the government but more invested in the military.

As for the government itself it would go...

President <-- Figurehead, maybe Goring, for it seems like something he would enjoy. Throw some big parties, and talk to heads of state. I could see this as the place for the Chancellor of Germany in his later years, kind of like retirement.

Riech Chancellor <-- head of the government, Head of the Nazi Party, I'll say Albert Speer, Hans Lammers or Martin Bormann each was close to Hitler, and compared to their more outlandish counterparts they where solid leaders from a government stand point.

Party Chancellor <-- assistant head of the nazi party in case something happens to the Riech Chancellor.
Click to expand...

I don't think that the Nazi state would return so quickly to the title "Prasident." the Fuehrer will be head of state IMO.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top