Nazi Germany Wins: Fate of Baltics?

soufsida

Banned
Now, the Baltics basically colloborated/allied with Nazi Germany and had their own movements to liberate their countries from the Soviet Union. How would they fare? I know like depending on countries a good portion of the population might be "Germanized" according to GeneralPlanOst (some sources), but other sources say that the Balts were already "germanic" and would not be messed with, etc. What about Estonia? Estonians are basically Finnish people and I'd think Nazi Germany would be very nice to Estonia lest they piss off Finland as an ally. I'd think the Finns would probably take a guardianship role over all of the Baltic countries, they and Sweden. What do you think?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
They'll at least try to Germanize Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. Then there's a whole other issue on whether they are successful or not. Finland is too weak of an ally for the Nazis to care at all what they think about it. The Nazis would just say the Finns should be happy the "Master Race" saved them from Communism.
 
The nazis started to germanize estonians quite soon after conquering Estonia in 1942
As they considered estonians to be Übermensch and Aryans(oh the irony) they would not send estonians to concetration camps, but instead turned high schools and universities german and simply put the estonians speak german, while having massive german colonisation in the area.
 
Totalitarian rule, such settler-colonisation as they can actually manage, forced Germanisation, repression of native culture and nationalism, probably some kidnapping of children, destruction of heritage... the stuff.

Being Aryan meant you didn't necessarily have to die. It didn't mean totalitarian racism was suddenly fun.


Also, Estonians are related to
 Finns in language and culture. They are no more 'bascially Finnish' than I as a Scot am 'basically Frisian'.
 
The Baltics would be joined to the Reich and Germanized.

For a Greater Finland the destruction of Estonian national culture would be a problem, though. Now in control of the lands of Eastern Karelia, Helsinki would have taken on a sort of pan-Finnic manifest destiny and Finland would consider itself the protector of the "brethren peoples" such as Karelians and Ingrians. Before and during WWII there was a lot of goodwill towards Estonia in Finland. The Estonians were fondly considered a sort of a national little brother. Relations were very warm and there were joint military plans and so on. During the war Estonians would have served in the Finnish army, like IOTL, and Finland would have a pro-Estonian lobby that would consider the nation having a debt of gratitude towards the Estonian people.

In these conditions, I could see Finland suggest that the Germans handle the Estonians more leniently than their other Baltic subject peoples and safeguard Estonian language and culture. And it would be easy to see such suggestions bluntly rebuffed. The bloody Finns considering themselves equals to the great German people? The nerve!

If this happens, Finland might try to cut a devil's deal and propose the Germans a wholesale relocation of the Estonian people to a sort of an national reservation in Eastern Karelia. At the time, Finland would be actively expelling Russians from the areas it had annexed. While this would create a purely Finnic Karelia, it would also mean that it would be very sparsely populated. Creating new "Finnic homelands" in the area would help repopulate it.

I don't know what the Germans would say to a suggestion like this. On one hand, they might think that the Finns would be helping them to get rid of the population of Estonia and the area could be more easily settled by actual Germans. On the other, the Germans might see a need for the Estonians as workers to build the Reich and be reluctant to send them to Finland.

Even if such a suggestion was made and accepted, it wouldn't be an easy situation to be an Estonian, having to choose between staying home and being assimilated into the Reich's German population or moving to Karelia, keeping one's language and culture but having to become a settler in a distant wilderness...
 
Actually, the Nazis considered only part of the Baltic peoples suitable for Germanization - a higher percentage than the Slavic nations but still a significant percentage would be deported to Siberia, if not outright exterminated. This is especially true of the Lithuanians, who were regarded as having a large Slavic adminxture.
There is a discussion on the subject here ("Plans for the Baltic nations"). And some Baltic historians have actually researched the proposed figures (page 48): 50% of Estonians and Latvians, 85% of Lithuanians and all Latgalians (a eastern Latvian subgroup, probably due to Slavic influence on them) were to be deported.

If this happens, Finland might try to cut a devil's deal and propose the Germans a wholesale relocation of the Estonian people to a sort of an national reservation in Eastern Karelia. At the time, Finland would be actively expelling Russians from the areas it had annexed. While this would create a purely Finnic Karelia, it would also mean that it would be very sparsely populated. Creating new "Finnic homelands" in the area would help repopulate it.
If the above figures are accurate, then immigration to Karelia would probably indeed be the better choice for them.
 

soufsida

Banned
Finland is too weak of an ally for the Nazis to care at all what they think about it. The Nazis would just say the Finns should be happy the "Master Race" saved them from Communism.

I could see Finland suggest that the Germans handle the Estonians more leniently than their other Baltic subject peoples and safeguard Estonian language and culture. And it would be easy to see such suggestions bluntly rebuffed. The bloody Finns considering themselves equals to the great German people? The nerve!

Finns were considered "aryan of non aryan origin" so Nazi Germans can't change that quickly.

Totalitarian rule, such settler-colonisation as they can actually manage, forced Germanisation, repression of native culture and nationalism, probably some kidnapping of children, destruction of heritage... the stuff.


Basically an extreme version of what Baltic Germans did before the Balts became nationalist?
 
Nazi rule in the Reichscommissariat Ostland would see the elimination of all Jews in the region (this is a given), eradication of anyone with the least inclination to resist (also a given), and the Germanization of remaining inhabitants and further attempts to push farming-colonization of the region. It would set back any progress of industrialization for at least a half-century, if not a full one or even two.
 
Basically an extreme version of what Baltic Germans did before the Balts became nationalist?
Interestingly, one of the main Nazi ideologues, Alfred Rosenberg, was a Baltic German.

Nazi rule in the Reichscommissariat Ostland would see the elimination of all Jews in the region (this is a given), eradication of anyone with the least inclination to resist (also a given), and the Germanization of remaining inhabitants and further attempts to push farming-colonization of the region. It would set back any progress of industrialization for at least a half-century, if not a full one or even two.
And deportation of a significant part of the native population - though that might be covered under eradication.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Finns were considered "aryan of non aryan origin" so Nazi Germans can't change that quickly.
Finland was a small nation, one that Germany has no need to take into consideration once the war is over. If they want to Germanize a place they'll try to do just that, with no consideration of who lived there before. Actually the Baltic States may unfortunately be places the Germans actually could Germanize somewhat.
 
The nazis made a lot of different plans (long before they had killed the bear!) and cancelled them again. Sometimes they wanted to Germanify the Baltics ASAP, sometimes they wanted to go for Ukraine first.
 
I do find the whole "send the Estonians to Finland" thing interesting. It's certainly more random than forcing them to speak German or killing them.
 
I do find the whole "send the Estonians to Finland" thing interesting. It's certainly more random than forcing them to speak German or killing them.

I think it is doable, given exactly the right set of circumstances. Perhaps not with the entire Estonian population (as it would still be quite sizable in terms of Finnish demographics) but a decent part of it anyway. This might be the part Rosenberg would have considered "unsuitable for Germanization", what ever criteria the Nazis would be using for this post-war.

Also, if the idea could be sneaked past the Nazi leaders/bureaucracy, the Finnish state might want to specifically recruit young people in Estonia to be employed as settlers, workers or administrators, etc. in the annexed territories, to avoid a situation where the Nazis would use "the Finnish option" just to get rid of the elderly or otherwise "undesired" parts of the population. Such a recruitment campaign could use the themes of kinship, reconstruction and the purity and freedom of this "new Karelian frontier", subtly suggesting to the people south of the Gulf that as builders of a Greater Finland they would enjoy more liberty and recognition than as mere subjects to Nazi rule.
 
Basically an extreme version of what Baltic Germans did before the Balts became nationalist?

I wouldn't say so. The Balts before nationalism were peasants and therefore, in the opinion of their 'betters' (I spit!) in all countries didn't matter.

As has been pointed out, of course, the breaking down of such an aristocratic view of the world had the potential to inculcate some virulent prejudice in the old aristocrats. But one can't back-date the totalitarian age.
 
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