Nazi Germany had oil supply?

[marathag]

Does having fewer horses in German agriculture also mean that less food needs to be grown to feed the horses and in turn more food can be grown to feed the German people?

Or is it not as simple as that?

Typically US farmers found that they didn't need to have roughly 1/3 of their acreage set aside for fodder after mechanization, plus the advantage that even a 15 horse tractor could pull a two bottom plow, halving the time for that task vs the horse.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

More could have been gotten out of Romania.

According to the tables in Posts 21 and 22...

Romania produced over 8 million long tons of crude petroleum annually in the years 1934-36.

By 1939 it was little over 6 million long tons.

From 1940 to 1943 it was only between 5 and 5¾ million long tons a year.

After the war production gradually grew until it reached 10 million long tons in 1955 and from 1963 to 1969 over 12 million long tons was produced annually.

Does anyone know why Romania's annual production in the years 1940-43 was 2 million long tons less than 1934-36? AFAIK the Germans (and Italians) were squeezing every drop of oil they could get out of the country.

 

[marathag]

Does anyone know why Romania's annual production in the years 1940-43 was 2 million long tons less than 1934-36? AFAIK the Germans (and Italians) were squeezing every drop of oil they could get out of the country.

Probably the same problem as Mexico's deals with Germany and Italy, they were working on barter deals rather than money. After the war started, Romania lost paying customers for the Bartering Germans and Italians, less incentive to pump away.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

According to the tables in Posts 21 and 22...

Romania produced over 8 million long tons of crude petroleum annually in the years 1934-36.

By 1939 it was little over 6 million long tons.

From 1940 to 1943 it was only between 5 and 5¾ million long tons a year.

After the war production gradually grew until it reached 10 million long tons in 1955 and from 1963 to 1969 it was over 12 million long tons was produced annually.

Does anyone know why Romania's annual production in the years 1940-43 was 2 million long tons less than 1934-36? AFAIK the Germans (and Italians) were squeezing every drop of oil they could get out of the country.

They were running out of easily exploitable oil and were conserving it, plus the Axis powers weren't able to pay what the Romanians were asking for, so they retained oil for themselves.

 

[thaddeus]

Does anyone know why Romania's annual production in the years 1940-43 was 2 million long tons less than 1934-36? AFAIK the Germans (and Italians) were squeezing every drop of oil they could get out of the country.

Probably the same problem as Mexico's deals with Germany and Italy, they were working on barter deals rather than money. After the war started, Romania lost paying customers for the Bartering Germans and Italians, less incentive to pump away.

They were running out of easily exploitable oil and were conserving it, plus the Axis powers weren't able to pay what the Romanians were asking for, so they retained oil for themselves.

answers are correct per all my reading on the subject, certainly there must have been some neglect of maintenance and upgrades during wartime also (beyond lack of new wells.)

have read recently that Italians discovered "natural gas" in the Piedmont region prior to war, it was unclear whether they discovered oil also or assumed oil also. but the point was they concealed this to insure the Germans did not gain control.

still maintain Germany could have consolidated their control over Romanian oil a lot easier than invading USSR, and if they still decided to invade they would have been better positioned, on balance, with more oil than with Romanian army.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

As it was the whole rearmament program was destroying foreign exchange. USSBS reports the historical synthetic fuel program was achieved mostly by credit as was the building of the WESTWALL. Since this is just redirecting the historical credit funding in a different direction, its unlikely to cause any more chaos than historical happened.

Destroy-ed as of 1936. The credit for those projects was not foreign credit, it was internal stocks of materials and debt that paid for it.

 

[PSL]

Destroy-ed as of 1936. The credit for those projects was not foreign credit, it was internal stocks of materials and debt that paid for it.

Not getting your point. All I'm saying is these resources- labour and funding could have been better spent , not increased. Germany & the Second World War Vol-1,pp-255 shows balance if imports V exports was mostly positive through the 1930s, while the Reichsbank gold reserve was good until 1933 [~ 2 billion RM], after which it plummeted to 165=>70 million RM through 1937.

It was the Great depression which caused this collapse.

Managing the balance of trade could have resolved most of this and in fact helped to finance the historical rearmament.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Not getting your point. All I'm saying is these resources- labour and funding could have been better spent , not increased. Germany & the Second World War Vol-1,pp-255 shows balance if imports V exports was mostly positive through the 1930s, while the Reichsbank gold reserve was good until 1933 [~ 2 billion RM], after which it plummeted to 165=>70 million RM through 1937.

It was the Great depression which caused this collapse.

Managing the balance of trade could have resolved most of this and in fact helped to finance the historical rearmament.

Of course the Depression and resulting protectionist policies, not to mention the drying up of US loans, wrecked the German economy. My point was that that the stockpiling program was a non-starter given the foreign exchange situation and need to build up both a war economy in depth and breadth. The problem of balance of trade was part of what Hitler wanted to resolve by starting the war in that he would cut lose from needing foreign resources and trade to sustain his economic block. The problem he and Germany had was how to do that given that lack of money incoming due to protectionism from the rest of the globe and the need to rebuild a war industry and military from near scratch.

 

[jerseyguy]

If it helps...

These are the OTL production statistics for the oil in realistic reach of Nazi Germany in the period 1931-50.

View attachment 440116

Do you have any sources or web links for these numbers? I don't doubt their accuracy, but I'm looking for historical statistics like this on oil production.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Do you have any sources or web links for these numbers? I don't doubt their accuracy, but I'm looking for historical statistics like this on oil production.

No problem. Here's the link.

https://www.bgs.ac.uk/mineralsuk/statistics/worldArchive.html

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Do you have any sources or web links for these numbers? I don't doubt their accuracy, but I'm looking for historical statistics like this on oil production.

One thing that I don't have is Germany's synthetic oil production from 1933 to 1945.

Does anybody have that? Preferably in long tons.

 

[jerseyguy]

No problem. Here's the link.

https://www.bgs.ac.uk/mineralsuk/statistics/worldArchive.html

Thanks, this is an awesome resource!

 

[Garrison]

As to mechanization of German farming, for that to work you would need a rationalization of the entire German agricultural system. A very large part of the land is held in small peasant farms where tractors and such will be of little use. Problem is that Nazi ideology embraced the peasant farmers as the bedrock of society and far from consolidating farms into larger more efficient units the intent was to create more such peasant farms in the conquered east. The Nazi's had zero interest in seeing people moving from the country to the industrial cities, they saw this trend as tearing the German people away from their roots and opening them up to exploitation by 'Jewish capitalism'.

 

[bernardz]

According to the tables in Posts 21 and 22...

Romania produced over 8 million long tons of crude petroleum annually in the years 1934-36.

By 1939 it was little over 6 million long tons.

From 1940 to 1943 it was only between 5 and 5¾ million long tons a year.

After the war production gradually grew until it reached 10 million long tons in 1955 and from 1963 to 1969 it was over 12 million long tons was produced annually.

Does anyone know why Romania's annual production in the years 1940-43 was 2 million long tons less than 1934-36? AFAIK the Germans (and Italians) were squeezing every drop of oil they could get out of the country.

Most sources say depletion of reserves, I am speculate but it could be due possibly to underinvestment before the war or possibly something went very wrong with the Romanian oil industry during ww2, can anyone tells us more?

They were running out of easily exploitable oil and were conserving it, plus the Axis powers weren't able to pay what the Romanians were asking for, so they retained oil for themselves.

I found some interesting statistics in this discussion

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=78524 who had a discussion on a similar topic


Here quoted is a table of Romanian Oil Production by years, unfortunately, it stops in 1943


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=78524&start=45#p727891

Years, Thousand Tons and Exports in tons
columns are year / Crude Oil production / Drilling (km) / Refinery Runs / Domestic Consumption / Exports to Czechoslovakia and Germany / Exports direct to the German Army / Exports to Italy and Albania.

1938 / 6610 / 288 / 6228 / 1674 / 999,240 / nil / 560,475
1939 / 6240 / 256 / 5837 / 1785 / 1,285,153 / nil / 629,350
1940 / 5810 / 235 / 5472 / 1862 / 1,429,807 / nil / 342,943
1941 / 5577 / 253 / 5255 / 1811 / 2,885,229 / 34,351 / 761,667
1942 / 5655 / 339 / 5237 / 2098 / 1,822,207 / 369,452 / 862,179

1943 / 5266 / 344 / 4903 / 2007 / 1,795,555 / 715,749 / 391,354

What this shows is total production declined due to exhaustion, and the share of Romanian national consumption increased. Some other imports are not factored in, e.g. to Turkey (266 bpd) and Switzerland (2,000 bpd) but these were to countries with economies effectively integrated in the Axis war effort so starving them of oil would have to be paid for in other areas.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


It appears that the Axis is getting a larger share of Romanian the oil and its not being held back. It does not explain why Romanian production stagnated again can anyone help here?

One thing that I don't have is Germany's synthetic oil production from 1933 to 1945.

Does anybody have that? Preferably in long tons.

If you look here at this table

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=78524&start=45#p719755
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
German oil by the source in 1000 tons per year

_____HomeCrude__HomeSynthetic____import____total___used_in_year
1939____888_______2200__________5165_____8353________?
1940___1465_______3348__________2075_____6888_______5856
1941___1562_______4116__________2807_____8485_______7305
1942___1686_______4920__________2359_____8965_______6483
1943___1883_______5748__________2766____10497_______6971
1944___1681_______3962___________961_____6504_________?
"WORLD WAR II A STATISTICAL SURVEY" ISBN 0-8160-2871-7
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This suggests that Hitlers best bet of getting oil was to increase his synthetics.


Now slightly off this topic but what I found interesting in this table in this discussion

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=780694#p780694
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Russian oil production
1940= 31 million tons
1941= 33 million tons
1942= 22 million tons
1943= 18 million tons
1944= 18 million tons
1945= 19 million tons.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It appears that although Hitlers strike South to get Russian oil failed, he did get a partial success in stopping the Russians from getting their oil. This is probably due to the Russian policy of Scorched Earth

 

[thaddeus]

some of the table on Romania is unclear or garbled? domestic shown for instance 1811 ('41) while exports to Germany 2,855,229 ('41) assuming that means domestic 1,811,000? for that same year Italy received 761,000?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

One thing that I don't have is Germany's synthetic oil production from 1933 to 1945.

Does anybody have that? Preferably in long tons.

Before I went to work this morning I found this website.

https://panzerworld.com/german-fuel-statistics

His source is the United States Strategic Bombing Survey

If you look here at this table

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=78524&start=45#p719755
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
German oil by the source in 1000 tons per year

_____HomeCrude__HomeSynthetic____import____total___used_in_year
1939____888_______2200__________5165_____8353________?
1940___1465_______3348__________2075_____6888_______5856
1941___1562_______4116__________2807_____8485_______7305
1942___1686_______4920__________2359_____8965_______6483
1943___1883_______5748__________2766____10497_______6971
1944___1681_______3962___________961_____6504_________?
"WORLD WAR II A STATISTICAL SURVEY" ISBN 0-8160-2871-7
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This suggests that Hitler's best bet of getting oil was to increase his synthetics.

Thanks.

In my early days on this site I suggested that Germany should have produced more synthetic oil.

It was shot down in flames on the ground that Germany could not produce any more coal and therefore it was impossible to produce any more synthetic oil.

In subsequent threads it was pointed out to me that several tons of coal were required to produce one ton of synthetic oil.

Therefore I think if the oil in what became West Germany was discovered before 1933 and it could be drilled with the technology that Germany had at the time it would be better to concentrate on that at the expense of the synthetic oil and the shale oil. In addition to providing Germany with more oil than OTL it would increase their coal supply.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

If you look here at this table

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=78524&start=45#p719755
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
German oil by the source in 1000 tons per year

_____HomeCrude__HomeSynthetic____import____total___used_in_year
1939____888_______2200__________5165_____8353________?
1940___1465_______3348__________2075_____6888_______5856
1941___1562_______4116__________2807_____8485_______7305
1942___1686_______4920__________2359_____8965_______6483
1943___1883_______5748__________2766____10497_______6971
1944___1681_______3962___________961_____6504_________?
"WORLD WAR II A STATISTICAL SURVEY" ISBN 0-8160-2871-7
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have put your figures into a spreadsheet because I think it is easier to read. Next to it are the crude petroleum production for Austria and Germany from my spreadsheet.

Apart from 1944 my figures for crude petroleum are reasonably close to yours. Mine are in long tons. What type of "ton" is yours in?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Here quoted is a table of Romanian Oil Production by years, unfortunately, it stops in 1943

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=78524&start=45#p727891

What this shows is total production declined due to exhaustion, and the share of Romanian national consumption increased. Some other imports are not factored in, e.g. to Turkey (266 bpd) and Switzerland (2,000 bpd) but these were to countries with economies effectively integrated in the Axis war effort so starving them of oil would have to be paid for in other areas.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It appears that the Axis is getting a larger share of Romanian the oil and its not being held back. It does not explain why Romanian production stagnated again can anyone help here?

I tidied it up for you.

 

[NoMommsen]

...

In my early days on this site I suggested that Germany should have produced more synthetic oil.

It was shot down in flames on the ground that Germany could not produce any more coal and therefore it was impossible to produce any more synthetic oil.

...

In between the flaming, have you been told for what (IMO rather questionable) reason Germany would have been unable to produce more coal ?
... aside from it can't be what's not allowed to be : improving the german position as it could make things even nastier for the wallies ...

In subsequent threads it was pointed out to me that several tons of coal were required to produce one ton of synthetic oil.

...

... and ?

Looking at these tables here, its obvious that at least regarding brown coal Natzi Germany had just "tapped" the East Elbian brown coal reserves compared to what the GDR get out of the soil in the post-war era alone.
Also the bohemian and moravian lignite fields were and stayed "underused" compared to the postwar era.

Why they didn't exploited them ... atm not much of a clue, but that they didn't do it IOTL does NOT mean they would not have could.
But ... the above linked site also shows, that the total production from 1938 to 1944 exceeded the total consumption of the same time (including exports).

It seems more that it was less a question of the coal at hand than the facilities/synthetic-oil-products plants to process the coal.

 

[marathag]

Looking at these tables here, its obvious that at least regarding brown coal Natzi Germany had just "tapped" the East Elbian brown coal reserves compared to what the GDR get out of the soil in the post-war era alone.
Also the bohemian and moravian lignite fields were and stayed "underused" compared to the postwar era.

Why they didn't exploited them ... atm not much of a clue, but that they didn't do it IOTL does NOT mean they would not have could.
But ... the above linked site also shows, that the total production from 1938 to 1944 exceeded the total consumption of the same time (including exports).

It seems more that it was less a question of the coal at hand than the facilities/synthetic-oil-products plants to process the coal.

The Germans didn't consider shipping Lignite more than a couple miles from extration point to end user to be worthwhile, so they would build powerplants or whatnot close to the fields, rather than to ship the stuff a long ways away.