Nazi Germany had oil supply?

[NOMISYRRUC]

If it helps...

These are the OTL production statistics for the oil in realistic reach of Nazi Germany in the period 1931-50.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

And these are the production figures for 1951 to 1969.

 

[thaddeus]

if they have more oil their dealings with USSR may be for other resources? and also would have less of need to detour south into Caucasus in 1942 (if invasion still occurs)

 

[Antiochus V]

Also, oil is available in North Africa, that should be good till 1943, a POD would involve changes in the pre-ww2 timeline to make this oil available but if it is, then Germany has oil till 1943

If Germany does not attack Russia she has oil from Russia.

More could have been gotten out of Romania.

I suppose if Italy is busy extracting the North African oil then one might assume a much more economically advanced Italy? I wonder if a prosperous oil-exporting Italy would still be facist?

 

[James Ricker]

Extra oil allows Germany to conduct a war of maneuver against the Soviet Union.
The luftwaffe will have more fuel available for training.
The results would be higher allied losses fewer German losses but that would just delay the inevitable buy 2 to 3 months.
The end result will be far greater German losses.

 

[bernardz]

Extra oil allows Germany to conduct a war of maneuver against the Soviet Union.
The luftwaffe will have more fuel available for training.
The results would be higher allied losses fewer German losses but that would just delay the inevitable buy 2 to 3 months.
The end result will be far greater German losses.

All this would be late in the war as I doubt that Germany in Russia could build more trucks plus infrastructure to take advantage of the extra oil in 1941. Assuming the war follows a path similar to the OTL, I doubt it makes much difference at Stalingrad, the big problem there was the lack of the railway. It would change German strategy, instead of trying to grab the oil from Russia her strategy would be to deny Russia the oil, but the Germans do not have the airforce to pull that up.

It would also change the US bombing strategy as there is no point in going after German oil if the Germans have plenty plus the German air defences are stronger.

It is quite possible here that atomic bombs get dropped on Germany not Japan first.

 

[Max Sinister]

Libya would be interesting, but the Brits can bomb it from Egypt. So unless the Italians discover it around 1920, start exploiting it immediately after Mussolini comes to power, and decide to store everything (even although it's more than they could ever need in a war), I can't see how it helps.

 

[bernardz]

Libya would be interesting, but the Brits can bomb it from Egypt. So unless the Italians discover it around 1920, start exploiting it immediately after Mussolini comes to power, and decide to store everything (even although it's more than they could ever need in a war), I can't see how it helps.

Would not the strategy of the axis in Africa be very different too if Libya was a major oil exporter in ww2?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

And the millions of horses that the Wehrmacht used to assist the infantry move their heavy equipment can be used instead on the agricultural fields to help the farmers on plowing n moving their harvest to be stockpile for future usages...

If anything they'd benefit more from having tractors than horses on farms.

Does having fewer horses in German agriculture also mean that less food needs to be grown to feed the horses and in turn more food can be grown to feed the German people?

Or is it not as simple as that?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

It would be ASB to go beyond the historical max production.

Do you mean the historical maximum production of World War II or the maximum production achieved in the 1950s and 1960s? If it's the 1950s and 1960s then I agree with you.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Now its just a really big stretch in why they would start it and how.

Why and how?

The best answer that I can provide for why is the Four Year Plan.

How is with the resources that they used for the shale oil and synthetic oil.

Then the shale and synthetic oil produced IOTL has to be deducted from the crude oil produced ITTL to produce the net increase.

However, that leaves the problem of discovering the oil early enough.

 

[Gudestein]

Do you mean the historical maximum production of World War II or the maximum production achieved in the 1950s and 1960s? If it's the 1950s and 1960s then I agree with you.

Why and how?

The best answer that I can provide for why is the Four Year Plan.

How is with the resources that they used for the shale oil and synthetic oil.

Then the shale and synthetic oil produced IOTL has to be deducted from the crude oil produced ITTL to produce the net increase.

However, that leaves the problem of discovering the oil early enough.

I dont use the ASB term lightly, so in this context I would say the Germans can not discover and extract more oil than there is on their soil.
Not requiring divine intervention does not mean it is easy.
I think the 4 year plan is way too late to discover it early enough.
However, the oil prices were comparably high in 1920's so a discovery of oil fields in Germany/Austria could provide the POD on commercial terms.
It also have much bigger butterflies for ww2 (better forex, tractors in farming, automobile industry...)

 

[thaddeus]

my (repeated) scenario is earlier control (if not annexation) of Austria, they tripled oil production domestically in all of Germany, IF they have concerted efforts in Vienna Basin AND found Matzen field, THAT is the likeliest POD, also because the infrastructure is there already, they are just adding more oil wells.

there is also obvious option of not settling for half of Romanian production? if they wanted to seize oilfields Ploesti is a lot closer than Baku. they could strike a deal with USSR, Hungary, and Bulgaria for division of the country?

 

[Atterdag]

How about north sea oil? There was some drilling before ww2 but the biggest reserves were found afterwards I think.

 

[NoMommsen]

Libya would be interesting, but the Brits can bomb it from Egypt. So unless the Italians discover it around 1920, start exploiting it immediately after Mussolini comes to power, and decide to store everything (even although it's more than they could ever need in a war), I can't see how it helps.

Why should it take so long for libyan oil to become available to europe ?

IOTL about 1953 the geological surveys for oil started in Libya. The export by truck and ship from sirtician wells with a daily flow of together between 100.000 to 200.000 barrel a day began 1959. The first pipeline feeded oil-shippment terminal became operative in octobre 1961.

No 10 years from begin of exploration to shipping of oil.

 

[PSL]

The German early 1930s strategy from Groner /Schacht/Beck POV, was to provide the Wehrmacht with two years of resources needed to wage continuous warfare in Europe. The stockpiling program would provide one years supply of munitions [tanks, planes ,artillery fuel/ammunitions] plus the resources needed to build the second years munitions. Of course Hitler forbade any stockpiling with his accelerated FOUR YEAR PLAN so the potential was never realised.

When studying the WESTWALL it was clear the resources invested their could have been reassigned to a different vector. The USSBS reports 1939 Wehrmacht/Nazi fuel storage capacity was 2.3 million tons, but these storage tanks were only 1/2 filled by wartime.

By redirecting WESTWALL assets of 3 Billion RM + 200,000 annual workforce plus 1.7 million tons of steel and > 10 million tons concrete, this could have expand indigenous storage to 3.9 million tons by 1939 and expand the synthetic fuel production capacity by 1.3 million tons plus produce 2 million tons synthetic fuel through the mid to late 1930s.

However its clear data shows Wehrmacht's best course of action was to gobble up as much of Europe as possible. Hitler's solutuion was to do this by force/bulling etc. Groner /Schacht/Beck solution was to use the GREAT DEPPRESSION to link these economies together and recover . This could sow the seeds of a 'pan European alliance' centered on Germany.

All they needed was a 'external threat'.

Edit, the above 2 million tons more synth fuel should also consume 8-10 million tons coal. Considering this would be spread over several years its a drop in the bucket compared to the annual coal production of nearly 300 million tons.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The German early 1930s strategy from Groner /Schacht/Beck POV, was to provide the Wehrmacht with two years of resources needed to wage continuous warfare in Europe. The stockpiling program would provide one years supply of munitions [tanks, planes ,artillery fuel/ammunitions] plus the resources needed to build the second years munitions. Of course Hitler forbade any stockpiling with his accelerated FOUR YEAR PLAN so the potential was never realised.

When studying the WESTWALL it was clear the resources invested their could have been reassigned to a different vector. The USSBS reports 1939 Wehrmacht/Nazi fuel storage capacity was 2.3 million tons, but these storage tanks were only 1/2 filled by wartime.

By redirecting WESTWALL assets of 3 Billion RM + 200,000 annual workforce plus 1.7 million tons of steel and > 10 million tons concrete, this could have expand indigenous storage to 3.9 million tons by 1939 and expand the synthetic fuel production capacity by 1.3 million tons plus produce 2 million tons synthetic fuel through the mid to late 1930s.

You do realize they lacked the foreign exchange to actually pull that off, right? The 4 year plan was a response to the virtual bankruptcy of the country and required autarky to try and find replacements to materials they could no longer afford internationally.

 

[PSL]

You do realize they lacked the foreign exchange to actually pull that off, right? The 4 year plan was a response to the virtual bankruptcy of the country and required autarky to try and find replacements to materials they could no longer afford internationally.

As it was the whole rearmament program was destroying foreign exchange. USSBS reports the historical synthetic fuel program was achieved mostly by credit as was the building of the WESTWALL. Since this is just redirecting the historical credit funding in a different direction, its unlikely to cause any more chaos than historical happened.

 

[Deleted member 2186]

It's easier to bomb refineries located in Thuringia than by Ploesti

It going to be a hell on Earth there with the USAAF and RAF bombing those German refineries.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Here are two I prepared earlier.

Germany 1931-41

Austria 1931-41