Nazi Europe. A dutch view.

Thinking about a storyline where Germany won the second world war. This from a Dutch perspective.

What would have happened with The Netherlands? Who would have led the country if separate countries would still be in effect. Would it be one european union like we have now? But with german rule. Would Adolf have pushed for a singular coin? Like we have the Euro now. Would it have been the Deutsches Mark. Like the Dollar in the US.

These are the questions I am going to try to answer. Starting with how the war was won. For this first part I might need some help. Anyone willing to make it a collaboration? Up for it? This AH TL would start at 1933. The start of it all.

Germany not wanting to mess with Russia and staying out of Africa, keeping itself to the greater European borders instead of pressing on. Fortifying the borders and standing ground.

Also, I am not nor have I ever been a person to hold racist views. I am however a person who wishes to see all viewpoints and see where it would lead us.
 
The Netherlands was considderd to be part of Germany if victorious since its people are Germanic. So most likely we would be annexed fully into the third reich, along with Belgium and Luxembourg. Maybe even the UK would be annexed into 1 country if they were to fall, along with the biggest part of France.

Arthur Seyss-Inquart was reichscommissar of The Netherlands since 1940 so he would probably continue as its governor or something.

yes, the German currency would probably be introduced to the entire Benelux, as would the German language.
 
Hmmm, yeah, what I thought.

I wouldn't be here for instance, being part Indonesian and all.

For now. It's a discussion and gathering of information. Will write soon. Getting other big ideas for other storylines. this site blasted my Block out of the water with all these great stories.
 
Hmmm, yeah, what I thought.

I wouldn't be here for instance, being part Indonesian and all.

For now. It's a discussion and gathering of information. Will write soon. Getting other big ideas for other storylines. this site blasted my Block out of the water with all these great stories.

Well good luck with that and welcome to the forum!:D
 
my understanding the consensus Netherlands and Belgium annexed to Germany, French region Nord Pas-de-Calais included in their administration so that was for leverage over France or tip that it was to be annexed also?

my scenario they sign treaty with Vichy regime in France and swap French-speaking Wallonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattachism#/media/File:Rattachismemap.png region of Belgium for Alsace

Dutch-speaking Flanders annexed to the Netherlands or in some type of confederation?

why would Nazi Germany do this? a Dutch State or Orange State could control Dutch colonies (the U.S. recognized the Vichy regime after all for number of years.)
 
Thank you, went to searching. Getting a bit disgusted. But okay.

Reading this. And how the dutch resistance was started late. and how most of the dutch were pretty much sympathizers. I think this story might be a bit easier than I thought.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_World_War_II#German_occupation
Ah, you mean the fact that they were the first to publicly protest the round-up of Jews. [sarcasm]Yeah, really sympathetic to the Nazi cause.[/sarcasm] As for the lack of active resistance, in a densely populated country with flat land, hiding is, you know, kind of difficult.

Do some proper research next time.
 
So far the Plans remain after WW2.

The Netherlands had to unite with Flanders part of Belgium and Germanized, then incorporation in New German Reich.
means the Official language would be German
there Indonesian colony would transfer to Empire of Japan.
also were some vaguely plans to let Germanized Dutch colonize the New Lebensraum in east of Reich.

while Walloon part of Belgium had become part of SS-Free state of Burgund (a Insane idea from Himmler)

what worry most in this scenario, who gonna be Gauleiter of this new Netherlands: Reinhard Heydrich
 

Deleted member 1487

So far the Plans remain after WW2.

The Netherlands had to unite with Flanders part of Belgium and Germanized, then incorporation in New German Reich.
means the Official language would be German
there Indonesian colony would transfer to Empire of Japan.
also were some vaguely plans to let Germanized Dutch colonize the New Lebensraum in east of Reich.

while Walloon part of Belgium had become part of SS-Free state of Burgund (a Insane idea from Himmler)

what worry most in this scenario, who gonna be Gauleiter of this new Netherlands: Reinhard Heydrich
I've never heard any of that as long term plans, what's the source?
 
Thank you Michel Van.

Also.MattII. Thank you for your [sarcasm] Constructive [\sarcasm] criticism.
I always love to see how people can just remind others in a friendly manner that they might be wrong about something without making them feel like total idiots.

Do you feel jealousy of any kind? Or are you just mainly an arspit all the time?

You insult millions of people for being Nazi sympathizers without sufficient cause and claim to be disgusted by all of them, and then still feel you have the moral high ground when someone berates you for it? Impressive.

What is there to be jealous of?
 
You insult millions of people for being Nazi sympathizers without sufficient cause and claim to be disgusted by all of them, and then still feel you have the moral high ground when someone berates you for it? Impressive.

What is there to be jealous of?

Being Dutch myself and becoming disgusted by information I read is something that happens. I also get disgusted by stuff some of our politicians say (Wilders for instance).

The government even wanted to say yes to the Nazis, the queen kicked that man out and got a new guy that didn't have that view. I am sure some of the stuff I was reading has been coloured in some way, and that post I was typing while reading.

I understand his berating a bit better now but still think a bit less of that for a mistake could have been nice. Tell me I am wrong, fine, but I am not an idiot, all I am saying.
 
Point of View.

All this talk about Nazi loving dutchmen is just a bunch of bull..... In 1940, begin of 1941 the German's played "nice" in the Netherlands and applied a "light" touch. The only the NSB where nazi lover. The average Dutchman mayby saw almost nothing of the occupyers. As the war turned against Germany they became harsher and the resistance grew.:cool:
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
If you are interested in the history of the Netherlands during the occupation and considering you are Dutch yourself I can't recommend the Resistance Museum in Amsterdam enough. They give a fantastic overview of life in occupied Holland.

It's only possible to claim 'the Dutch pretty much sympathised with the Germans' if you consider not resisting the same a sympathising. Yes the Resistance was relatively speaking not very large. Sure there was no guerilla campaign to fight the Germans. There was also a sizable Dutch contignent in the Waffen-SS. All studies have shown however that by and large the Dutch population was very much against National Socialism.

You have to consider a few things:

- The German goal in 1940 was to make National Socialists out of the Dutch. The Dutch being of germanic stock. That's why the occupation was initially not heavy-handed. This changed when the Germans found out that the Dutch population wasn't so easily turned.
- In 1940 the majority of the WORLD expected Germany to win the war. In fact almost everyone expected that there would soon be a peace.
- 50/50 hindsight.
 
Thank you, went to searching. Getting a bit disgusted. But okay.

Reading this. And how the dutch resistance was started late. and how most of the dutch were pretty much sympathizers. I think this story might be a bit easier than I thought.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_in_World_War_II#German_occupation

Not being in any Resistance movement or having a non-fighting but intelligence gathering Resistance is not a sign of a society that sympathise with the ennemy.

It is easy to say from a different perspective, that you should resist when your country is occupied, but take into account what people in 1940 and 1941 believe. They saw the Germans conquering almost all Europe and the rest are their allies or sympathetic to their cause. They see the UK as the only country resisting to the Germans only because it is an island and until december 1941, the USA are neutral and the Soviet Union is clearly loosing the war.

So looked at the situation from the perspective of an average dutchman in 1940-1941 and not from your perspective in 2015.
 
About Michel van info

I've never heard any of that as long term plans, what's the source?

Most from the german book
"Wenn Hitler den Krieg Gewonnen Hätte" by Ralph Giordano
A very detail Information about burtal, insane and megalomaniac plans of the Nazi and SS

Hitler had already announce Reinhard Heydrich as Gauleiter for Benelux
but The Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia, Konstantin von Neurath had to "soft approach" according Hitler & Himmler
So Heydrich was send to finish the Czech resistance and Germanized Bohemia and Moravia by brute force.
Lucky the Czechoslovak resistance killed him on 27 May 1942.

means he had use same method in Netherlands and Flanders, with same result on 27 may 1942 by the Netherland resistance.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Thank you Michel Van.

Also.MattII. Thank you for your [sarcasm] Constructive [\sarcasm] criticism.
I always love to see how people can just remind others in a friendly manner that they might be wrong about something without making them feel like total idiots.

Do you feel jealousy of any kind? Or are you just mainly an arspit all the time?

You quote us one website and then blatantly ignore it, while at the same time insulting hundreds of thousand (or possibly millions) of honourable Dutch citizens who resisted the Nazis passively.

Depends, are you a brash idiot all the time, or is it something you put on specially for visiting this place?
I suggest that both of you keep in mind Board policy on insulting other members.
 

Deleted member 1487

About Michel van info



Most from the german book
"Wenn Hitler den Krieg Gewonnen Hätte" by Ralph Giordano
A very detail Information about burtal, insane and megalomaniac plans of the Nazi and SS

Hitler had already announce Reinhard Heydrich as Gauleiter for Benelux
but The Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia, Konstantin von Neurath had to "soft approach" according Hitler & Himmler
So Heydrich was send to finish the Czech resistance and Germanized Bohemia and Moravia by brute force.
Lucky the Czechoslovak resistance killed him on 27 May 1942.

means he had use same method in Netherlands and Flanders, with same result on 27 may 1942 by the Netherland resistance.
Do you have any info about how well received the book is by historians? I cannot find any info about it.
 
You quote us one website and then blatantly ignore it, while at the same time insulting hundreds of thousand (or possibly millions) of honourable Dutch citizens who resisted the Nazis passively.

Depends, are you a brash idiot all the time, or is it something you put on specially for visiting this place?

I am not a brash idiot all the time, just an inconsiderate one some of the time.
I must apologize, having reread what I said yesterday I have indeed been acting the fool. Speaking my mind before thinking. I shall keep myself in check more and not post on days I feel as " bad days" Having a bit of a hard time with a tough pregnancy and the top just blowing off like that is not something that should happen. No excuse but perhaps a bit of an explanation.

Again, sorry for my idiocy. I shall do some more research and think before saying something.

Won't happen again.

Cheers
Daecca.


On another note. Loving the combined knowledge.

To me, the sources are kind of important, but if historians are in agreement or not is a question of if that matters. I want to find the most plausible way the germans would be ruling over the dutch, being it, Annexed, iron fisted or gentle, perhaps "schmoozing" after winning the war. I don't know. But I want to find out.

The Museum in amsterdam is a lovely tip, thank you.

And for the rest, thanks again for all the knowledge. I'm loving it.
 
Do you have any info about how well received the book is by historians? I cannot find any info about it.

His work is used by german Historians as reference material
sadly there no of his work was translated into english

Ralph Giordano 23 March 1923 – 10 December 2014
Was survivor of holocaust, became journalist, then writer and publicist
he is know in Germany for his reports on West German trials of Nazi war criminals for the Central Council of Jews in Germany in 1958
And his journalist work for WDR (West German Broadcasting organization)

Giordano write the semi-autobiographical novel "Die Bertinis" portraying the experiences of a family of mixed ethnic heritage , through hell of Nazi rule and Holocaust.
His book "Die zweite Schuld oder Von der Last, Deutscher zu sein" is critical report about Nazi movements after WW2 and rise of Neo-Nazi movements.
in response to that book he write "Wenn Hitler den Krieg Gewonnen Hätte" and "Wie kann diese Generation eigentlich noch atmen?" a overview of hate letter send by Nazi to Giordano.
The book "Die Traditionslüge" he criticize the German armed forces undemocratic roots and it connection to Wehrmacht and NSDAP.
In "Ein Glücksfall, ein Wunder, ein Mirakel." he interview survivors of Holocaust.

For his work he received allot awards like the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany
in last years Ralph Giordano comment about danger of Islam was heavily criticized, now 2 years after his dead, his worst prediction became true...
 
Top