Nazi America vs. The World

Well?

  • Nazi America lose, because it is, well, Nazi

    Votes: 89 63.6%
  • Nazi America win, because it is, well, America

    Votes: 51 36.4%

  • Total voters
    140
The real issue that is faced is that all politics is local, and the United States in 1940 was not perceived the way it is today. No one will recognize the threat before it is there.

Hitler's policies within Germany were very much perceived and noted throughout the world. There was just not much to do about it given the state of the world until he ran totally wild by 1939. So the same would attribute to Nazi-America.

And while Germany and perhaps Russia would not notice the new quality of American ambitions, the United Kingdom would be very much aware of what was to happen. As others have posted, relations between both nations were so close, that Whitehall would worry massively from day one and take precautions. Oh, and for those who tend to forget, there is a government in Ottawa, too, which would very soon feel threatened (and also have to deal with hundreds of thousands of refugees). I think that France would also still be very much aware of what the United States can accomplish, and while it would take longer for it to recognize it as a threat to its interests, it would very much notice that the bond between both republics born from bourgeois revolutions, as symbolized by the gift of the statue of liberty, is severed.

Germany, well, however, would not much care. The right wing would admire the regime. Jews and Liberals would mourn the loss of civil rights over there. The government would actually not see it as an important factor.
Stalin would, as in the case of OTL's Nazi takeover, not see much of a difference between a large power with a capitalist democracy or with a fascist leadership. Both are threats.
 
"In the 1940s, should the US decide to go bananas (in and of itself ASB), the world would be hard-pressed to stop it."

Ah, no, I think you are wrong here Mike and are forgetting the problem of numbers. In this ASB Nazi America v the world scenario, the US will have to conquer the world, or at least large portions of it as bases and bulwarks to keep the rest under control, and that type of garrison duty takes more manpower than any US state will have. The USN may well be able to control the world's seas and still have the resources for an air force able to take on the rest of the world. Note that the US didn't have to do this in OTL, US airpower by itself IOTL was not more powerful than the RAF + Red Airforce + Japan + Germany. It's possible it could happen, but the men, money and resources will have to come from somewhere. What branch of service or the economy suffers as a result?

Even with Nazi-levels of conscription, the US doesn't have the population to support a navy, air force and army to beat the world or the economy to support those efforts.

The next problem is the US army. IOTL it wasn't very impressive. The US army didn't face anything like the Eastern front, or even the variety of challenges the British did from 1939-1945. In this scenario they will have to face such problems on a regular basis. Operationally the US army IOTL didn't perform that well, they'll need to improve dramatically to keep the casualty levels acceptable. Unless you have a radically differently trained and equipped US Nazi army to that of OTL, it will get bled and then shredded by the Germans, the Russians, probably the British too. Is the ASB Nazi America going to be equipped with wonder weapons or those of OTL? If it's contemporary American equipment from our WW2 then they're going to get walloped against quite a few opponents. Also, making the US soldiers and generals Nazis isn't likely to make them any more competent. If anything, fascist regimes demonstrate remarkable levels of incompetence in important areas because they allow ideology to over-ride reality and common sense.

I suggest that in this scenario there will be no US nuclear weapons, or they will be very late in appearing. It's not just the absence of Jewish scientists, most scientists won't want to work for such a programme. The start of an effort to develop a Nazi American bomb will be greatly delayed (I can't see Albert Einstein writing to the Nazis in any country to raise awareness of the possibilities of the A-bomb), the suspicion of 'Jewish science' will still be there as it's ideologically driven, foreign scientists will not be journeying to the US as they did IOTL, the UK won't be helping the Americans get going as they did IOTL. There's a greater chance that the UK, USSR and/or Germany will develop the bomb first in this scenario.

The other thing to consider is what state the US economy will be in? As the OP talks about 'Nazi America' then we have to assume that the political and economic management would be similar to that of OTL's Nazi Germany. In brief, a madhouse of internally competing interests generating waste and a succession of changing mad plans. US industrial efficiency, and in the long term industrial might, will be lower than that of OTL. The question is how much?

Conquering Canada and islands in the Atlantic and Pacific would be fairly straightforward, but that's completely different to trying to conquer Europe or China. The US just doesn't have the manpower to do it, not even a Nazi America that sends every able bodied male to the front. A Nazi US will be able to dominate the western hemisphere because of weight of numbers and economic might, but invading the other continents is a very different challenge.

The OP also suggests that it's an America v everyone else scenario. In the 1940s the 'everyone else' is too strong.
 
There were two types of powers in OTL WWII:
1. The United States
2. Everyone else.

In the 1940s, should the US decide to go bananas (in and of itself ASB), the world would be hard-pressed to stop it. One the RN, IJN and MN are trashed by the Essex/Iowa battlefleets, then it is over. Will occupying Canada be a pain (presuming the Canadians can't be co-opted - and unless the US is run by complete morons, it will be)? Maybe. Will it matter one way or the other? Nope.

The real issue that is faced is that all politics is local, and the United States in 1940 was not perceived the way it is today. No one will recognize the threat before it is there. Germany and Russia will worry about each other until and unless the fleets of B-29s appear over Berlin and Moscow. And then what?

Geographic isolation means strategic warfare all runs one way. Once the Islands (Iceland, the Azores, Cape Verde, the Canaries, Ireland, Britain, Japan) are occupied (something the primacy of the USN makes certain) the World Island is under seige. Heck, the US doesn't even have to occupy it - it can simply trash it. An Evil-enough US will poison all the water, crops, and trash the infrastructure from the air. Eventually the nukes come, and that's that.

Mike Turcotte

How exactly does the USA invade a freely supplied Japan and Great Britain? are you kidding? Imagien trying to launch D-Day without a huge Island only 10 miles behind you. The logistics are fucking horrible. This war would be a fucking bloodbath for the US. They are going to be dealing with MILLIONS of casualties across the globe why are the public going to accept this? Jesus the USA isn't run by God, in fact in this scenario it's run idiots.

The OP also suggests that it's an America v everyone else scenario. In the 1940s the 'everyone else' is too strong.

THANK-YOU
 
Let's say during post-WWI era the United States was successfully taken over by hyper-nationalist right-wingers a la OTL Nazis (or in other words, a variety of fascism that incorporates biological racism and anti-semitism).

Their ideology revolves around:

- The entire North, Central, and South America are American "lebensraum", and should become parts of "Greater American State"
- The Whites are the "master race". and superior to all other races
- The Jews, Romani, communists, blacks, Latinos, Asians, Arabs, homosexuals, and physically and mentally disabled people are sought to be exterminated, for the sake of White "racial purity".

Dearborn, Michigan secedes from this US
 
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