Naval Warfare between France and Germany in a 1905 War?

The possibility of a 1905-06 War between Germany and France has been discussed in some depth this month.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...ight=early+WW1

Discussion mostly focused on the how such a war would commence on land. This was sensible, as any European War at this time would probably be decided by decisive land battles, and the capture of enemy territory. However, control of the sea lanes would still be vital, especially at a time when nitrogen still has to be mined, not created out of air through the Haber process. The importation of food and other non-military supplies would also be vital in any long war.

So, assuming Great Britain decided to stay out of such a conflict, and Russia and Japan are too preoccupied to intervene, how might a naval war between France and Germany proceed at this time? Both nations possessed a large number of pre-dreadnoughts, and nascent submarine programs. How likely would a decisive naval battle between those powers be, and how much of an advantage would it give either nation to have military control of the sea lanes (i.e. how much would international pubic opinion tolerate surface fleet blockades?)
 
The possibility of a 1905-06 War between Germany and France has been discussed in some depth this month.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...ight=early+WW1

Discussion mostly focused on the how such a war would commence on land. This was sensible, as any European War at this time would probably be decided by decisive land battles, and the capture of enemy territory. However, control of the sea lanes would still be vital, especially at a time when nitrogen still has to be mined, not created out of air through the Haber process. The importation of food and other non-military supplies would also be vital in any long war.

So, assuming Great Britain decided to stay out of such a conflict, and Russia and Japan are too preoccupied to intervene, how might a naval war between France and Germany proceed at this time? Both nations possessed a large number of pre-dreadnoughts, and nascent submarine programs. How likely would a decisive naval battle between those powers be, and how much of an advantage would it give either nation to have military control of the sea lanes (i.e. how much would international pubic opinion tolerate surface fleet blockades?)

I'm pretty sure both sides would scrupulously stay out of British territorial waters, which could effectively shut down the Straits of Dover. A lot depends on whether there is a Mediterranean theater; either Italy or AH joining Germany means France has to split its fleet between the Atlantic and the Med, which greatly cuts down on their effectiveness.
 
ooo!

I've done a lot of naval wargaming specifically in that period. I'll have to check my reference books and see what kind of strength the two countries had then. I imagine the Brandenberg class of ships won't go to the Turkish, but I'll have to check the dates. I like those 6-gun battleships, even if they weren't all that great.
 
The British had an agreement with the French not to allow the Germans through the Channel in the event of a Franco-German War. That leads me to believe that if the UK stays out, you're going to get cruiser actions and what-not on the Atlantic trade routes, but that you won't see the High Seas Fleet round Scotland and Ireland for little conceivable purpose.
 
The British had an agreement with the French not to allow the Germans through the Channel in the event of a Franco-German War. That leads me to believe that if the UK stays out, you're going to get cruiser actions and what-not on the Atlantic trade routes, but that you won't see the High Seas Fleet round Scotland and Ireland for little conceivable purpose.

Why would it not be worthwhile for the German HSF to sail around the British Isles to engage the French fleet? The two fleets were at near parity at the time, and the main French Naval Base at Brest would have been well within the range for the German battleships.

Also, wouldn't it be a violation of international law for the UK to interdict warships from one power and not the other? The French navy could hardly stay out the the channel, with their second or third biggest base being located at Cherbourg.
 

CalBear

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France get crushed like a bug.

The Jaureguiberry and Charlemagne class pre-dreds were far inferior to the Kaiser Friedrich III, and Wittelsbach, much less the Braunschweig class and the Deutchland and barely equal to the Brandenburg class in armor protection. The same holds true for the Armored Cruisers, with the Roon & Prince Adalbert classes being far better ships than the French Leon Gambetta & Dupleix classes.

The same disparity holds true for the succeeding classes of captial ships.

The French did have a far better submarine design in the Narval and Aigette than anything the German yards had produced (exclusively for export).
 
I suppose after France signs its Entente Cordiale with Britain in 1904, a conflict in the English Channel or North Sea against Germany would probably get Britain involved somehow. Britain could not risk such an destabilizing activity so close to home.

With a Naval confrontation in the English channel or North Sea being less likely of a scenario how about something in the Med?

France vs an A-H and German alliance? Perhaps a naval war between France and Italy/A-H?
 
France know it can't win alone on the see afterall they withdraw from the naval race. The main war will be on land.
 
France know it can't win alone on the see afterall they withdraw from the naval race. The main war will be on land.

Were they actually aware of their inferiority compared to the Germans? The Russians and the Japanese both thought highly enough of the French fleet to buy warships from French naval yards and hire French naval experts to advise their navies.

Plus, wasn't French naval doctrine focused on using small ships to take out enemy battleships and commerce raiders to destroy enemy merchant marine? Would such tactics have worked against the German navy?
 
France's submarine programme is probably the best in the world, and one of the longest realistic in development, but if I remember my Ropp correctly was primarily focused in the Med. Presumably there are some under construction, and some available for a Northern theatre.

What would Italy and Austria be doing in this scenario? Presumably a purely Franco-German war has come about due to Russian weakness and inability to act, so Germany's allies probably sit it out, as a guarantee of keeping Britain neutral.

If Germany has got any ships in the Med at this time, they are either going to run for internment, or get hunted down by the French

The Far East will be more curious, though Tsingtao is not as developed as it would become by 1914. But Germany always had some useful forces out there, and with a base that France is pretty much unable to reduce (Kwangchowan being their nearest base to try from) then we could see some interesting ship-to-ship actions out there

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Plus, wasn't French naval doctrine focused on using small ships to take out enemy battleships and commerce raiders to destroy enemy merchant marine? Would such tactics have worked against the German navy?

That doctrine, IIRC, was to be used only in war against UK. Against Germany Marine Nationale would've been used more according to the classical naval doctrine. It's quite likely that there'd be big battleship naval engagements, IMO.
 
The French had 6 pre-dreadnoughts in dry-dock or launched in 1905, but none of them would be ready before 1907.

So the French would go to war with 12 reasonably modern, but mostly not great battleships as well as 6-12 obsolescent barbette ships of dubious value.

The French also had 12 big but generally weakly-armed armored cruisers.

The Germans had 11 modern pre-dreadnoughts with somewhat weak guns. They also had 4 six-gun Brandenburg-class pre-dreadnoughts with big guns but poor stability.

They also had 8 cute little coast-defense battleships.

Where the Germans were inferior was cruisers--they had 4 of any size to match the French and 9 smaller ones.

So in a head-to-head battle of the big ships, I think it's anyone's game, though I'd give the nod to the Germans, especially if the French are trying something in German waters. Overseas, in the smaller engagements which would typify colonial battles, the French clearly have an edge.

The French also have a big torpedo-boat fleet (relatively useless at this date) and a sizable destroyer flotilla (around 20). The Germans don't have much in this arena.

This would be a *really* fun war to play. A Jutland-style engagement would be very cool.
 
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