Naval Equipment that should and shouldn't have entered service

The Essexes and their GATO/BALAO submarine contemporaries, have examples which are now museum ships with the pedigrees of the Constitution. Even the North Carolinas and the Iowas are so honored.

Where is the Illustrious and T class sub?

Razor blades.
Without detracting from your point, there is a massive cultural difference between the USA and UK re. Museum ships generally. UK does not hang on to that many old ships, USA tries to preserve all it can, maybe too much so?

Also desperate postwar economics forced a quick sale of much of the wartime royal navy. Literally the proceeds from scrapping sales being needed to pay to keep the government going. Which is why there is no HMS Warspite floating museum. The largest survivor from that period being the 6 inch gunned HMS Belfast.
 
Um... where the hell are you getting your Standard Displacement figures? Because they're completely wrong.
Thanks - saved me the bother of responding

Question to McP - why wasn't Enterprise saved?

People can sup from the Slade and Worth cool aid all you like but its mostly bullshit

Anyway the British do not save ships - if we saved every 'famous' warship worthy of being saved our dockyards would have ceased to work for lack of space!

The USA has slightly more room!

HMS Victory for example was saved by the thinnest of margins - Then Admiral Hardy having returned home and told his wife that he had ordered her to be scrapped - was ordered by his wife to go straight back to work and rescind the order under pain of no dinner or fun between the sheet later for him that night.

And no British ship ever made was designed or ordered with the thought 'wouldn't this make a great museum ship' in mind.

From the top of my head Britian saved the Cruiser HMS Belfast and a C class Destroyer HMS Cavalier along with a handful of smaller craft.

So using that as a bench mark is flawed.
 
From the top of my head Britian saved the Cruiser HMS Belfast and a C class Destroyer HMS Cavalier along with a handful of smaller craft.
And Warrior, thanks to her being used as a refueling jetty (I think), and everyone forgot she was there long enough that by the time someone got curious enough to look more closely, and realised what she was, there was enough interest in warship preservation for her to be saved. If anything it reinforces your point even more.
 
From the top of my head Britian saved the Cruiser HMS Belfast and a C class Destroyer HMS Cavalier along with a handful of smaller craft.

So using that as a bench mark is flawed.
HMS Caroline in Belfast too, thanks to her being used for cadet training for about sixty years.
 
The RN had bought 48 Phantoms by the time the Jaguar M failed it's carquals, years earlier iiuc.
True, but I don't understand why it is relevant.

A total of 52 F-4K Phantoms was built if the 4 prototypes are included. According to the UK Serials website they were delivered 1967-70.

However, the RN only received 28 of the 48 production aircraft. The other 20 were delivered straight to the RAF and equipped No. 43 Squadron from 1969.

This was due to the Phantomisation of Eagle being cancelled, which AFAIK was in 1968. That is in the aftermath of the Sterling devaluation and the subsequent decision to bring the East of Suez withdrawal forward from 1975 to the end of 1971.
 
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A good example is HMS Implacable, formerly the French Duguay-Trouin, veteran of Trafalgar, used in various roles as a harbour hulk for over 100 years after decommissioning and the second-oldest ship in the Royal Navy in 1949 - at which point she was towed out to sea and scuttled because neither the British nor French governments could spare the money to restore or maintain her.

The British were under resource and financial restrictions the the Americans simply weren't - even in the 1930s they went from an anti-military government and extremely limited budgets to a rushed rearmament to a war emergency situation with shortages of just about everything and ships needed yesterday. Yes, working an extra 500 tons of steel into the design would produce a better seaboat with better accommodation and more potential for expansion - but those 500 tons are already promised to three different projects and they can't afford six months' delay to revise the design.

And while the carriers were the primary striking arm of the USN, RN naval aviation often found itself competing for hind teat behind both the RAF and the U-boat war. Had the Implacables (laid down pre-war, but not in service until late 1944) been ready in 1942, or the Audaciouses built to a US construction schedule, they might have had careers to match the Essexes. As it was, the RN got the Light Fleets - too small and too late - which despite being explicitly designed as throw-away war-emergency ships nevertheless lasted in service years after the Essexes had gone.
 
True, but I don't understand why it is relevant.
People are talking about how it could go on British carriers after 1971 or so. If Britain keeps around long enough that the Jaguar M enters service the RN would have Phantom and Buccaneer fleets that are better than Jaguar Ms.
 
Question to McP - why wasn't Enterprise saved?
Same reason as Warspite wasn't. Incompetence and too expensive to render safe for museum purposes. Both warships took incredible amounts of damage that rendered them economically unfit for that kind of fate.

Slade's facts may be disorganized, his opinions unpopular. But the damage cited and the real results remained (US navy ship's bills) that the conclusions were drawn from and still are all too real.

And besides citing British government records to further underpin and confirm the USN repair conclusions from the same source used to refute them ought to be worth looking at for the absolute hilarity involved.

HMS Belfast? Preserved as a private effort. Notable reason? IWM wanted to preserve a 6 in gun turret to match the 15 in ones they got from scrapped British battleships, and that ballooned out to preserve a whole ship. Why should she have been preserved? Battle of North Cape. How about USS Salem? As far as I can tell, for about the same reason as the HMS Belfast was picked to represent British WW II cruisers, she was just picked at random as a cold war era survivor to be an example of a US WWII era heavy cruiser.

Funny thing is that unlike Belfast, she did her career as a Mediterranean showboat. At least Belfast shot at somebody. I would have loved USS San Francisco to have made it. Now THAT was a cruiser.

McP
 
And Warrior, thanks to her being used as a refueling jetty (I think), and everyone forgot she was there long enough that by the time someone got curious enough to look more closely, and realised what she was, there was enough interest in warship preservation for her to be saved. If anything it reinforces your point even more.
Gives me the idea for a story where a bunch of dimensional travelling naval history nerds go back in time to a different dimension that's almost identical to our own in order to purchase/save/steal historical warships that were scrapped in OTL.
 
AAAh, M33 is only a baby monitor!!
Strangely enough the Russians seem to have a still floating example of their version of the US Designed ACW era Passaic Class Monitor.

It's still afloat and has apparently been used as a storage hulk/repair ship and retains a lot of original features. They seem to have just forgotten about her. Their are efforts underway to preserve her and restore her for display.

 

Imagine what that will be when she is ready? 2035... Maybe the Americans are crazy to do it, but Hampton Roads was one of those key moments in history. Worth it.
 
AAAh, M33 is only a baby monitor!!
With her guns orginally being from one of the Queen Elizabeths(does anyone know which one?)since the aft secondaries on the QEs such had terrible problems with being dry in anything but the calmest seas which meant the RN simply plated the area over on all five QEs and used the guns on Monitors
 
Gives me the idea for a story where a bunch of dimensional travelling naval history nerds go back in time to a different dimension that's almost identical to our own in order to purchase/save/steal historical warships that were scrapped in OTL.
I.... don't know where I'd begin :p simply too much to choose from!
 
I.... don't know where I'd begin :p simply too much to choose from!
How about one member of every class of battleship,(and Renown as the sole Battlecruiser that's still around)carrier,cruiser,submarine, and destroyer that's around on September 1st,1945 to start with
 
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With her guns orginally being from one of the Queen Elizabeths(does anyone know which one?)since the aft secondaries on the QEs such had terrible problems with being dry in anything but the calmest seas which meant the RN simply plated the area over on all five QEs and used the guns on Monitors
The QE's were wet boats from the start... remember seeing a photo a LONG time ago of the Queen Elizabeth in a heavy sea with her bow dipped under almost back to the "A" turret.... think if I'd been on her I might've been questioning the wisdom of my enlistment at the time :p
 
The QE's were wet boats from the start... remember seeing a photo a LONG time ago of the Queen Elizabeth in a heavy sea with her bow dipped under almost back to the "A" turret.... think if I'd been on her I might've been questioning the wisdom of my enlistment at the time :p
That's the price of being quite over their intended design weight
 
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