NATO without Britain & France - Does it still exist?

In OTL France withdrew from NATO's military command in the 60's under De Gaulle's leadership. While De Gaulle's Anti-Americanism is legend, it is not hard to see an ATL where De Gaulle (or a leader to the left of De Gaulle) withdrawing France from NATO entirely.

Across the Channel, the UK in OTL has had its share of political figures skeptical of America (Powell, Foot, Bevan), given the right ATL, a plausible scenario could be made for UK exiting NATO.

So if the UK and France left NATO and repudiated the US at any time up until 1980, could NATO survive?

Would it lead to US withdrawal from Western Europe?
 
In OTL France withdrew from NATO's military command in the 60's under De Gaulle's leadership. While De Gaulle's Anti-Americanism is legend, it is not hard to see an ATL where De Gaulle (or a leader to the left of De Gaulle) withdrawing France from NATO entirely.

Across the Channel, the UK in OTL has had its share of political figures skeptical of America (Powell, Foot, Bevan), given the right ATL, a plausible scenario could be made for UK exiting NATO.

So if the UK and France left NATO and repudiated the US at any time up until 1980, could NATO survive?

Would it lead to US withdrawal from Western Europe?

The french withdrawal from NATO united command was only for peace time, as in case of war all french units were integrated in NATO fighting forces, except french nuclear forces.

De Gaulle anti-americanism is not the only reason for french withdraw from NATO unified command, french army was very disapointed by the lack of US support at the end of the Indochina war, and french army was unable to send many experimented troops to Algeria as the NATO forced these troops to stay in northern France or Germany. Troops fighting in Algeria were mostly conscripts and they clearly lacked air support as french air forces were required to serve in Europe.

When some of my friends served in the 80's and the 90's, those serving in the main battle corps units in bases in eastern France and western Germany trained with various west-german or americans units.

When serving in french army in 1998, I saw the plan and the US units (coming the US to french ports) my regiment was supposed to still served as recon forces... Even if these plan were no longer valid and the american units no longer existed.
 
Seeing as you still have the US, Canada, West Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Norway, Turkey, Greece, et cetera... yes, it exists.
 
Seeing as you still have the US, Canada, West Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Norway, Turkey, Greece, et cetera... yes, it exists.

But is it enough for an adequate mutual defensive alliance?

Does an ATL UK and French exit inspire other W Euro nations to leave?
 
But is it enough for an adequate mutual defensive alliance?

Does an ATL UK and French exit inspire other W Euro nations to leave?

IIRC Spain had a referendum on NATO membership in the middle 1980s. If the UK had left Spain might follow suit.

That's probably the most plausible time for the UK to leave NATO. It was in the Labour Party's manifesto for the 1983 general election (also known as the longest suicide note in history) along with scrapping the nuclear deterrent and leaving the then EEC.

Though whether more countries would follow their example and that led to NATO breaking up - I don't know.
 
IIRC Spain had a referendum on NATO membership in the middle 1980s. If the UK had left Spain might follow suit.

That's probably the most plausible time for the UK to leave NATO. It was in the Labour Party's manifesto for the 1983 general election (also known as the longest suicide note in history) along with scrapping the nuclear deterrent and leaving the then EEC.

Though whether more countries would follow their example and that led to NATO breaking up - I don't know.

Spain was voting to join NATO. It wasn't an initial member of the alliance, being under Franco's rule at the time.

I can't see NATO persisting as a viable concern after both UK and France left; that a significant percentage of non-US combat power. I would expect some sort of US commitment to the defense of Western Europe to remain though, either via a number of overlapping mutual defense treaties or some sort of NATO successor alliance that addresses the French and British concerns over participation.
 
Spain was voting to join NATO. It wasn't an initial member of the alliance, being under Franco's rule at the time.

I can't see NATO persisting as a viable concern after both UK and France left; that a significant percentage of non-US combat power. I would expect some sort of US commitment to the defense of Western Europe to remain though, either via a number of overlapping mutual defense treaties or some sort of NATO successor alliance that addresses the French and British concerns over participation.

No, the referendum held in 1986 was over leaving NATO, which Spain joined in 1982, which in turn was seven years after Franco died.
 

CalBear

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There is a difference between leaving NATO and repudiating the U.S.

If it is the latter then NATO is finished. No way to stage or supply and there is no strategic depth.
 
Thanks for all the replies.

If the UK and France left NATO and repudiated the US, NATO might collapse but I can't see the US giving up bases in Italy and Turkey. The US would still involve itself in Europe from stand-alone alliances with those nations.

However, can the US defend West Germany without UK and France?
 
But is it enough for an adequate mutual defensive alliance?

Does an ATL UK and French exit inspire other W Euro nations to leave?

A Brexit-Frexit from NATO would probably trigger some revival of the Entente. Also remember that the European Defence Community was still a fresh idea (although Mongénéral had a heavy role in its ultimate rejection). Maybe with Gaullist help, some form of EDC will be revived?

Also, at least in the case of the French, AFAIK they always considered themselves as allies to the US (bilaterally), even when out of the command structures of NATO (Intosh is right in poiting that they never entirely left). An Entente (or super-Entente) would be mainly useful as a counterweight to the US within NATO.
 
In OTL France withdrew from NATO's military command in the 60's under De Gaulle's leadership. While De Gaulle's Anti-Americanism is legend, it is not hard to see an ATL where De Gaulle (or a leader to the left of De Gaulle) withdrawing France from NATO entirely.

Across the Channel, the UK in OTL has had its share of political figures skeptical of America (Powell, Foot, Bevan), given the right ATL, a plausible scenario could be made for UK exiting NATO.

So if the UK and France left NATO and repudiated the US at any time up until 1980, could NATO survive?

Would it lead to US withdrawal from Western Europe?

How would it fare without Turkey ?
 
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