Native Americans reach Iceland pre-viking era

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Ricardolindo, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Malone Well-Known Member

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    Not from any information I can find on that. Both her parents are apparently Icelandic going back many many generations.

    I can believe someone in her family tree may have come from Greenland but not any of her recent ancestors from what she's known.
     
  2. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    Aug 4, 2018
    Every heard of Sami that prob why not honestly but honestly just because someone doesn’t look white doesn’t mean they are from Greenland just so many assumptions are being made here
     
  3. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    After further "research" seems you're right.
     
  4. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    As this idea, here's my suggestion.

    The proto-Beothuk and proto-Innu begins having greater contact and trade with each other in the early centuries after Christ. This resolve in improvement in sea going canoes, they also trade with the Dorset who tell them about a land to the north, where they once lived. Curious Beothuk-Innu decides to explore this land, they find a land of ice with a forests and tundra along the ice. But thee's a lot of wild animals, and they hunt the caribou and hares in the summer and return to their homeland in the winter. But in 350 a stor results in a boat ending up far to the east and far from the coast. They find a new land filled with great forests and mild weather and overwinter in this land luckily the beaches are full of seals. They succeed in travelling home next spring and bring the tale with them. Over next decades their visits to both island continue and overwintering in Iceland, while hunting in Greenland in the summer becomes common.

    Species of North American trees, plants and berries are introduced more or less accidental on Iceland. The result are a increased biodiversity, a fewsnow hares brought as living ration are often used, and a few get away, resulting in hares spreading on the island. A greater population stay at home. Large land dwelling prey animal are non-existent, but seals and fuish make up a large part of their diet, while birds, eggs and hares deliver a little more calories. But the forest have become far more diverse and centuries of contact with the American mainland have resulted in forests much like Newfoundland and the American northeast.

    At 700 AD Iceland are home to 1500 Beothuk-Innu, who are in continues contact with their homeland, Irish munk arrives on the island aound this point in time. The contact in the end up with the munks being killed. Life continues as usual until the Norse discover the islands. What follow are first slave raids and then conquest. The Amerindians disappear in less than a lifetime, but their bloodlines survives among the Norse Icelanders. But the Norse also become aware of the Amerindians hunting grounds in Greenland and continue this. The Norse when discovering caribou also decides to introduce a few calves to Iceland, where they spread in the empty highland. The large and diverse forests of Iceland, also become popular place for the Icelanders to let their cattle and pig graze (the forest heat the climate by function as windbreaks), the result are a much slower deforestation with sheeps being less important. Of course the forest still suffer from the Norse colonisation, but less so than in OTL.

    From here we can go two way, the Norse know early on about America, so we could see a early expansion which likely would be more successful, as it would go directly from Iceland, or the Icelanders doesn't care, as they have enough land.

    If not the result are a few myth about the people who lived on Iceland before and a Iceland with much more biodiversity and maybe a Icelandic tradition for summer hunting on Greenland, keeping Greenland as part of the Norse world.
     
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  5. BELFAST Irish Confederate

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  6. ramones1986 Grumpy and Lazy

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  7. metalinvader665 Well-Known Member

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    Why? It's highly probably the Polynesians did reach South America OTL, and if they never have a long pause in their voyages then they'd reach Rapa Nui thousands of years earlier, and from their Galapagos (even closer to South America). They've found evidence of Polynesian genes in one indigenous group in the Amazon, and given how many lineages died out in the Americas thanks to disease, colonialism, and indigenous imperialism (major empires like the Inca loved to relocate entire ethnic groups all over their empire), this is a significant find, which suggests to me that it isn't too implausible for the Taino or a similar group to engage in such expansion if given the time.

    Sami look typically "white" though, even discounting how many are mixed with Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, or Russians. Famous Sami folk singer Mari Boine is (IIRC) full-blooded Sami, but if you looked at her without knowing that, you'd never assume that.

    That's the challenge right there. You need a reason to innovate, and have said innovations spread. The biggest advantage to better boats would be making whaling safer and increasing access to whales. Of course, this requires better whaling equipment which IIRC was not common in the far north until the Thule. But there was innovation in the previous few thousand years further south amongst other indigenous groups, so if that could spread to the Saqqaq or other Paleo-Eskimo cultures, then they'd have one piece of what they need.

    I'm well aware of that, but nobody would know that there's any islands north of the Marquesas simply based on that. By your logic they could have turned back and never found the Line Islands. And then the Line Islanders could have turned back and never found Hawaii.

    Bermuda would be found the same way (and it was, but by the Spanish returning from the Caribbean). There's seabirds nearby, it follows the winds and ocean currents, and anyone trading regularly along the Bahamas and Eastern Seaboard would eventually find this out and sooner or later be forced into the unknown and at that point, why not try and see if there's anything out there? At 1,300 km from the Bahamas and 1,050 km from Cape Hatteras, it isn't too far away, and as you get close, they'd find they were near land.

    The Azores are definitely a stretch, but they're only 2,000 km from Newfoundland. The Marianas were over 2,000 km from the nearest inhabited island, but were settled at that distance. A group on St. Pierre/Miquelon or even Sable Island might figure that out. It's more challenging than Iceland though, which would need to be settled from the southern tip of Greenland, and given the conditions of those areas, would need to be done during a warm period. Since we're working on limited time, we'd have Greenland and Iceland settled during the 1st-3rd centuries AD.
     
  8. Ricardolindo Well-Known Member

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    So, if the Saqaar or the Dorset managed to survive and reach Iceland, how would they interact with the British Islands and Scandinavia?
     
  9. metalinvader665 Well-Known Member

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    Each are different PODs, since each group would take a few centuries to keep advancing. They'd first have to settle the Faroes, though, before the 4th century when the first European settlers arrived. It's hard to say what would happen afterwards. On the Faroes, they might be displaced by agriculturalists who would absorb them, or perhaps instead they could peacefully absorb the agriculturalists' knowledge and their tools. Either way, their tools would be traded to Iceland in time which would help the Icelanders out, and optimistically, the Icelanders would end up importing European grains and settle down and farm, which would increase their population immensely.
     
  10. Skraea Well-Known Member

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    It is highly feasible for Dorset and/or Beothuk to reach Iceland via Greenland. Mayhap a few fishing canoes go off course and land there. Perhaps word gets out of a large uninhabited island rich in game and mild in climate. And since we're in the Medieval Warm Period,maybe trade network thru Iceland,Greenland and then mainland North America similar to the Norse Era. Now,that still doesn't butterfly the Irish monks nor Vikings discovering Greenland. The monks and Vikings still have horses and steel which is a bit of an edge. Perhaps we could see a hybrid culture emerge between Norse and Beothuk/Dorset, one that means a surviving Vinland.
     
  11. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    Umm well until the first person coughs then they die off quickly and the Norse kill huge amount of them and then colonize it
     
  12. Jürgen Well-Known Member

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    The Dorset was a very small group of people who didn’t even settle southern Greenland, their tech packet was very primitive and their lifestyle with relative few prey animals, much more than the Inuits. The reason I suggested a Beothuk-Innuendo mix was because they would be somewhat more advanced and better adapted to the warmer climate of West Greenland and Iceland.
     
  13. twovultures Best leagues are NFL, FIFA, and Shmalkaldic

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    For the British Islands, their interaction depends on how well they take to conversion when Catholic monks appear. Assuming the Norse oral histories are correct, the Irish Catholic Church is probably going to be the first European authority that is made aware of these Icelanders. I can see them putting some vigorous attempts to prosletyze, though at this point in time it's a little difficult to tell what would happen. The language barrier would be formidable, and IIRC the Roman Catholic Church had very, very little experience if at this point preaching to people who were entirely outside the one-time Roman sphere. This isn't like talking to an Arianist Frank, or a Pagan Saxon-there is NO-ONE who can act as a translator, no shared cultural memory of Rome on which to build a commonality, and even the lifestyle of the Icelanders will be completely alien as to make most of the parables of the Bible not understandable even if there was a mutual language-how can you tell someone who has never ploughed and has no cultural concept of ploughing to beat his sword into a ploughshare?

    The Norse will try to settle, but given the dearth of good land in Iceland this is going to immediately provoke a bloody clash. I don't see this necessarily going the way of the Norse. Iceland is remote, farming land may have been inadvertently eroded away by man-made fires and at this point in time there is no guarantee that the Vikings introduce major epidemiological killers as the Spanish did IOTL in the Caribbean. Against stiff resistance, the Norse may decide that conquest is just not worth it and turn back, as they did with the Americas IOTL.