Native American nations: Comanche vs. Apache?

Both peoples were renowned for their military prowess, and both provided a headache for U.S. settlement of the West. Which tribal group was more powerful? As in, which one held out longer, occupied more territory, had a better chance of retaining some sovereignty or at least autonomy?

Are there any other Native American nations that were as powerful in the West? The Lakota/Sioux are usually mentioned, though they're further north, and I suppose the Navajo retained a lot of territory.

I'm also wondering if it's possible if an Indian Territory of the west could have created for any of these nations, since the historical one hosted many of the most powerful and prestigious tribes of the East.
 
Well, considering the ruthlessness that the Comanche pursued the Apache with, and the fact that they the went on to destroy, enslave or displace almost all of their immediate neighbours my bets are on the Comanche surviving.

If they get lucky and sign some favourable treaties with America/Texas/Mexico and avoid the worst of smallpox they might have a chance at autonomy. But even then, the march of industry might just grind them down anyways.
 
They all run into the same challenges that nomads ran into around the world in the 19th and 20th centuries: they may win a few battles, but the settlers will keep coming, with an industrial base that makes the battles increasingly imbalanced ("Whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun, and they have not").

Add in the destruction of the bison herds they relied on, and you run into the need to settle down, but of course all of these tribes had relatively tiny populations by the 19th century, too small to provide an adequate industrial base to resist conquest.
 
They all run into the same challenges that nomads ran into around the world in the 19th and 20th centuries: they may win a few battles, but the settlers will keep coming, with an industrial base that makes the battles increasingly imbalanced ("Whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun, and they have not").

Add in the destruction of the bison herds they relied on, and you run into the need to settle down, but of course all of these tribes had relatively tiny populations by the 19th century, too small to provide an adequate industrial base to resist conquest.

I think the key to survival is to get it in writing early on and pray that the treaty is actually worth the paper it's printed on. The big declines never happened until the 1870-1880s, so if you can get a treaty guarantee in the 50s you might be able to make it through with some semblance of territory.
 

EMTSATX

Banned
I would think the Comanche. I forget who but several people called them the best Calvary in the world. They seemed to adept best to the "White man's way" of fighting. They pretty successfully fought the Mexican's, the Tejanos', the Texans, The Confederates', the U.S. government. They were wide ranging and had good leadership.

The Apache were fierce no doubt but they were blessed with incredible leadership and would not have done as well with different leadership.

I don't have a lot of respect for the Navajo (as a fighting force, not culture. That being said my native American friends seem to have a cultural bias against them, why I have no clue.) But they did not have a warrior culture and they occupied land no one really wanted. Compare that to the Comanche who had Texas and Oklahoma. They also tend to as a people not to be in good physical shape (genetics?). They also were not a horse culture, which I think the great tribes (Sioux and Comanche.

I have a huge bias towards the Sioux. My best friend is a Sioux we have been friends since the military. They were fierce warriors and had great leadership in spades. I also admire their culture very much.

A scary thing is if the Cherokee had been more war like. I sincerely feel they could have been scary. The Cheyenne could have been very, very scary.

Another Tribe was the creek, but I think that is outside your question.
 
which one held out longer, occupied more territory, had a better chance of retaining some sovereignty or at least autonomy?
The Apaches held out longer. The final surrender of Goyaale ("Geronimo") to General Nelson Miles in 1886 is generally considered the end of the Apache wars, although sporadic acts of resistance did occur into the 20th century. By contrast, Comancheria was defunct by 1875 after the destruction of the Comanche-Kiowa-Cheyenne village in Palo Duro Canyon in the autumn of 1874 and the surrender of the last Comanche bands during winter and spring. But that in itself does not mean that the Apaches were stronger, just as the fact that African kingdoms held out longer than Indian kingdoms does not mean that Burundi was stronger than the Sikhs. The Apaches were further away from the East, lived in more rugged terrain, and had very easy access to Mexican territory.

In 1800, there were almost three times more Cherokees than Navajos, and the Cherokees were organizing into a state. Yet the Navajos retain the core of their homeland while the Cherokees do not. "Retaining some sovereignty or at least autonomy" is less about Native strength and more about geography.

As for territory, both nations were scattered fairly widely across the Southwest and the Plains. In particular, population mobility makes it difficult to measure how much area really was occupied. The Plains Apaches, for example, variously ranged from the Black Hills to the Canadian in the 18th (edit: and 19th) century. So do all these lands count as land occupied by Apaches, even if there were never more than a few hundred Plains Apaches?

Are there any other Native American nations that were as powerful in the West?
Yes. Besides the Lakota, Osage hegemony in the prairie-plains between the Arkansas and the Red in the 18th century is well documented. Osages acted as middlemen between Europeans from the East and the Plains and Southwest nations, raided surrounding peoples with impunity for slaves and horses, and regularly clashed with the Comanche over eastern buffalo grounds. You don't hear much about them, though, because American perception of the Indian Wars is extremely settler-centered while the Osage world collapsed in the early 19th century due to invasions from Eastern Indians (Cherokees, Shawnees, etc) whom the Americans had forced into migration.

The Shoshones and the Blackfeet were also hegemonic powers in the far Northern Plains, if you're interested in them.
 
Comanche, definitely. But the Apache weren't one group, the Comanche were a couple of autonomous groups that acted together more often than not. Granted, the Comanche were able to do so well because of repeated critical miscalculations by the Spanish as well as many sprees of genius luck and skill. They did drive the Plains Apache mostly into Mexico (and that was with Spanish helping the Plains Apache, IIRC).

I do not believe either could maintain any more sovereignity than is granted to American Indian groups, however. Their way of life wasn't compatible for that, and they (Comanche at least) were approaching both ecological devastation (brought on by them, but made far, far worse thanks to whites) as well as the steamroller of white settlement which, let's face it, they couldn't possibly beat.

I think the key to survival is to get it in writing early on and pray that the treaty is actually worth the paper it's printed on. The big declines never happened until the 1870-1880s, so if you can get a treaty guarantee in the 50s you might be able to make it through with some semblance of territory.

The 1850s? Like the Treaty of Fort Laramie, which was worth nothing in the end, precisely because it was the best way of dealing with the Sioux (at their height) at the time and nothing else.

I really don't see survival. The 1840s and 1850s were horrible years on the Plains thanks to drought and the onset of major white interaction with the Plains, which helped decimate the bison herds. Like we saw in the 1860s, this forced the Plains Indians into relations with the US government to make up for the deficit. Predictably, both sides utterly hated the arrangement and regularly accused each other of deceit and theft, and hence the final period of Indian Wars on the Plains (as well as more one-sided and tragic affairs like the Sand Creek Massacre).

I don't have a lot of respect for the Navajo (as a fighting force, not culture. That being said my native American friends seem to have a cultural bias against them, why I have no clue.) But they did not have a warrior culture and they occupied land no one really wanted. Compare that to the Comanche who had Texas and Oklahoma. They also tend to as a people not to be in good physical shape (genetics?). They also were not a horse culture, which I think the great tribes (Sioux and Comanche.

I have a huge bias towards the Sioux. My best friend is a Sioux we have been friends since the military. They were fierce warriors and had great leadership in spades. I also admire their culture very much.

Go read about Navajo raids on Spanish New Mexico. Seems as if they were just as much of a factor as the Comanche (and others) for the fall of that province. They were very skilled fighters, and proved impossible to really deal with since they were so damn good with terrain. They also were experts at herding sheep (which they stole by the wagonload from the Spanish and Mexicans)--seems like what the Comanche were to horses, Navajo were to sheep. And their success against US campaigns is pretty impressive--you simply did not enter Navajo land and expect a quick, easy victory. If I recall, it took two campaigns of mass burning and starvation tactics (granted, pretty common in Indian warfare) to make them submit. That sort of resilience has got to count for something--they didn't become the most spoken Native American language in the US for nothing. Although I guess the Navajo succeeded precisely because they weren't as bad as the Comanche or Sioux in attracting negative attention through massive amounts of raiding.

I don't know about the Sioux. They seem like a group that got extremely lucky moreso than the Comanche. The story of the smallpox epidemic (1839 or so was it?), the US attempting to vaccinate various American Indian groups, and running out of funding when the get to the Sioux and thus can't vaccinate rival groups like the Arikara and Mandan, causing their decimation and the rise of Sioux ascendence, seems like case in point. On the other hand, the origins of the Sioux as a farming people is very interesting.

I'm also wondering if it's possible if an Indian Territory of the west could have created for any of these nations, since the historical one hosted many of the most powerful and prestigious tribes of the East.

The experience of the Navajo and Apache at Bosque Redondo suggests that putting a bunch of competing tribes in one reservation is a poor idea (although granted Bosque Redondo was screwed the moment they deported the Navajo there).

The Apaches held out longer. The final surrender of Goyaale ("Geronimo") to General Nelson Miles in 1886 is generally considered the end of the Apache wars, although sporadic acts of resistance did occur into the 20th century. By contrast, Comancheria was defunct by 1875 after the destruction of the Comanche-Kiowa-Cheyenne village in Palo Duro Canyon in the autumn of 1874 and the surrender of the last Comanche bands during winter and spring. But that in itself does not mean that the Apaches were stronger, just as the fact that African kingdoms held out longer than Indian kingdoms does not mean that Burundi was stronger than the Sikhs. The Apaches were further away from the East, lived in more rugged terrain, and had very easy access to Mexican territory.

In 1800, there were almost three times more Cherokees than Navajos, and the Cherokees were organizing into a state. Yet the Navajos retain the core of their homeland while the Cherokees do not. "Retaining some sovereignty or at least autonomy" is less about Native strength and more about geography.

As for territory, both nations were scattered fairly widely across the Southwest and the Plains. In particular, population mobility makes it difficult to measure how much area really was occupied. The Plains Apaches, for example, variously ranged from the Black Hills to the Canadian in the 18th (edit: and 19th) century. So do all these lands count as land occupied by Apaches, even if there were never more than a few hundred Plains Apaches?


Yes. Besides the Lakota, Osage hegemony in the prairie-plains between the Arkansas and the Red in the 18th century is well documented. Osages acted as middlemen between Europeans from the East and the Plains and Southwest nations, raided surrounding peoples with impunity for slaves and horses, and regularly clashed with the Comanche over eastern buffalo grounds. You don't hear much about them, though, because American perception of the Indian Wars is extremely settler-centered while the Osage world collapsed in the early 19th century due to invasions from Eastern Indians (Cherokees, Shawnees, etc) whom the Americans had forced into migration.

The Shoshones and the Blackfeet were also hegemonic powers in the far Northern Plains, if you're interested in them.

Osage served a nice block for Comanche expansion, but the Comanche were likely at the limit of what they could've done by that point.

Shoshone seem to have had remarkably poor luck once the horse and gunpowder had diffused enough amongst the Blackfoot Confederacy, though they were winning for a good while (thanks to their southerly location). But from my reading, I don't get the same dominance factor the Lakota, Comanche, etc. had from the Blackfeet. Probably because it was more marginal land and there's less European accounts to work off of compared to the Lakota and Comanche who were regularly running into major areas (or at least areas that tried to be that) of Euroamerican settlement.
 
They did drive the Plains Apache mostly into Mexico
I think you're confusing the Apaches living on the plains around 1700 with the Plains Apaches. Despite Spanish protection, most plains-dwelling Apaches were chased away from Texas south and west by the Comanche in the 18th century. But when the Comanche attacked some Apaches were forced north, not southwest like the rest of their people. These Apaches are what are known as the Plains Apaches. They were absorbed into the Kiowa in the Yellowstone River area, effectively becoming an autonomous Apache-speaking Kiowa band, and many were forced to flee as far north as the Black Hills due to attacks by the Crow and Shoshones. In 1805 all the Plains Apaches (and the Kiowas) returned to the southern plains as the Lakota invaded from the east, eventually allying with their former Comanche enemies.

They seem like a group that got extremely lucky moreso than the Comanche. The story of the smallpox epidemic (1839 or so was it?), the US attempting to vaccinate various American Indian groups, and running out of funding when the get to the Sioux and thus can't vaccinate rival groups like the Arikara and Mandan, causing their decimation and the rise of Sioux ascendence, seems like case in point.
The rapidity and success of their conquests in the 18th and early 19th centuries - the defeat of the Ioways and Otos, the ousting of the Kiowas and Cheyennes from the Black Hills (begun around 1775 and completed by 1814), the routing of the Arikara in 1792, and the decimation of the Crows in the 1820s - seem too much to attribute just to the Lakota being luckier than the Comanche. Factors like the British guns coming directly to the Sioux from the Saint Peter's River are far more important.

Also, vaccination wasn't responsible for Sioux dominance over the Arikaras and Mandans. Both were devastated by the Sioux and by smallpox in the 18th century, and vaccination was not responsible for the Sioux suffering less from smallpox; the difference was that Arikaras and Mandans lived in large settled villages that were much more susceptible to disease than the mobile Sioux bands. Between around 1750 and 1800, the Arikara population fell by 85% and the Mandan population fell by perhaps 65%. By the beginning of the 19th century both nations were dominated by the Sioux.

Osage served a nice block for Comanche expansion
Forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, but you seem to be implying that the Osages were no more than a "block for Comanche expansion." On the other hand, you could make just as strong an argument that the Comanches were a nice block for westward Osage expansion. The Osages dominated the Midwestern fur trade, exerted enduring hegemony over neighboring peoples like the Quapaws, and Wichita chiefs reported that "the Osages are continually killing us and stealing our horses, as well as those of other nations." To quote Thomas Jefferson, "[the Osages] are the great nation South of the Missouri, their possession extending from thence to the Red River, as the Sioux are great North of that river. With these two powerful nations we must stand well, because in their quarter we are miserably weak." There's a reason he singles out the Osages and the Sioux.
 
I think you're confusing the Apaches living on the plains around 1700 with the Plains Apaches. Despite Spanish protection, most plains-dwelling Apaches were chased away from Texas south and west by the Comanche in the 18th century. But when the Comanche attacked some Apaches were forced north, not southwest like the rest of their people. These Apaches are what are known as the Plains Apaches. They were absorbed into the Kiowa in the Yellowstone River area, effectively becoming an autonomous Apache-speaking Kiowa band, and many were forced to flee as far north as the Black Hills due to attacks by the Crow and Shoshones. In 1805 all the Plains Apaches (and the Kiowas) returned to the southern plains as the Lakota invaded from the east, eventually allying with their former Comanche enemies.


The rapidity and success of their conquests in the 18th and early 19th centuries - the defeat of the Ioways and Otos, the ousting of the Kiowas and Cheyennes from the Black Hills (begun around 1775 and completed by 1814), the routing of the Arikara in 1792, and the decimation of the Crows in the 1820s - seem too much to attribute just to the Lakota being luckier than the Comanche. Factors like the British guns coming directly to the Sioux from the Saint Peter's River are far more important

I probably am confusing the two groups (the ones I was thinking of were mostly the Lipan, weren't they?). My mistake.

I'm more thinking of the 19th century Sioux, with incidents like the vaccination one I mentioned, the Treaty of Fort Laramie, and the fact they were doing this at the same time the Comanche and Cheyenne (among others) were decimated by famine. But the ground was laid in the 18th century (fur trade, the western bands adopting horse culture, etc.), yes, but from what I've read, I get the picture they really came into their own (versus other Plains Indians) in the 19th century. Their "empire" was later than the Comanche, and at a time when things were getting unfavourable fast if you were a Plains Indian.

Also, vaccination wasn't responsible for Sioux dominance over the Arikaras and Mandans. Both were devastated by the Sioux and by smallpox in the 18th century, and vaccination was not responsible for the Sioux suffering less from smallpox; the difference was that Arikaras and Mandans lived in large settled villages that were much more susceptible to disease than the mobile Sioux bands. Between around 1750 and 1800, the Arikara population fell by 85% and the Mandan population fell by perhaps 65%. By the beginning of the 19th century both nations were dominated by the Sioux

I was referring to the 19th century outbreaks. It's very telling that the Sioux (along with the Comanche, incidentally) are one of the few tribes whose population expanded in that time period. The Arikara, Mandan, etc. were more vulnerable precisely because of that. It's easy to tell who got the short end of the stick with the coming of the horse to the Great Plains, and disease definitely didn't help. The Pawnee are yet another example, since quite a few voluntarily surrendered to the US to save them from the Sioux.

Forgive me if I'm getting this wrong, but you seem to be implying that the Osages were no more than a "block for Comanche expansion." On the other hand, you could make just as strong an argument that the Comanches were a nice block for westward Osage expansion. The Osages dominated the Midwestern fur trade, exerted enduring hegemony over neighboring peoples like the Quapaws, and Wichita chiefs reported that "the Osages are continually killing us and stealing our horses, as well as those of other nations." To quote Thomas Jefferson, "[the Osages] are the great nation South of the Missouri, their possession extending from thence to the Red River, as the Sioux are great North of that river. With these two powerful nations we must stand well, because in their quarter we are miserably weak." There's a reason he singles out the Osages and the Sioux.

That's exactly what I mean, but it's from a matter of perspective. If you're looking at the Comanche, that's what they would be. And the thread title is "Comanche vs. Apache". Of course, you are totally correct about the Osage being dominant in their own field.
 
The Confederates already made a deal with the Cherokee in Tndian Territory. Could they have made an alliance with the Apache, Navajo, or Comanche. If Sibley does better, they could make a deal with the first two. The Comanche would be stronger, but since they occupy part of Texas, that would be tricky. I could imagine them relocating from Texas to Kansas or Colorado.
 
I think the key to survival is to get it in writing early on and pray that the treaty is actually worth the paper it's printed on. The big declines never happened until the 1870-1880s, so if you can get a treaty guarantee in the 50s you might be able to make it through with some semblance of territory.
There's your problem.
 
There's your problem.

That's pretty much it. Once the buffalo decline happens, their power starts to erode incredibly quick. The only way I see the Comanche making is if Mexico is a lot stronger, and there's something in writing and the Americans see a net benefit of having a Comanche state as some sort of buffer between themselves and Mexico. There are a great deal of 'ifs' involved with this scenario.
 
Read Pekka Hamalainen's book Comanche Empire, he goes into pretty good detail about the history of the Comanche. One of the reason for the final war against the Commanche was to protect the economy of Texas since the Comanche were stealing the cattle and horse in large quantities to sell to New Mexican Comancheros. They were also eating beef to supplement their food supply and were making plans to rebuild the buffalo herds. The Texas were being driven wild about the situation. So when the Buffalo Hunters started to hunt in the Stake plains and the US military had the final exscuse to go after the Comanche and end the problem for good. Note if someone knows about a book in the Comanche and Kiowa raids into Mexico I would like to know about it.
 
The Confederates already made a deal with the Cherokee in Tndian Territory. Could they have made an alliance with the Apache, Navajo, or Comanche. If Sibley does better, they could make a deal with the first two. The Comanche would be stronger, but since they occupy part of Texas, that would be tricky. I could imagine them relocating from Texas to Kansas or Colorado.

Weren't the Comanche at odds with the Cherokee quite often (as were many others who originally lived in the area the Cherokee got deported to). The alliance is probably mutually exclusive, and the Cherokee are lot easier to deal with since at that point they were much more incorporated into the US system than the Comanche. Would the Comanche really go to Colorado voluntarily at that point--if they did, it wouldn't be at the behest of the white man (plus the local Cheyenne might have something to say). And John Chivington's unit too for that matter.

Apache and Navajo don't seem like they'd make an alliance with the Confederates. What's in it for them? They clearly didn't find much difference between the Confederacy and the Union, since they fought both. Kit Carson sure did a number on them too during the Civil War.
 

EMTSATX

Banned
Go read about Navajo raids on Spanish New Mexico. Seems as if they were just as much of a factor as the Comanche (and others) for the fall of that province. They were very skilled fighters, and proved impossible to really deal with since they were so damn good with terrain. They also were experts at herding sheep (which they stole by the wagonload from the Spanish and Mexicans)--seems like what the Comanche were to horses, Navajo were to sheep. And their success against US campaigns is pretty impressive--you simply did not enter Navajo land and expect a quick, easy victory. If I recall, it took two campaigns of mass burning and starvation tactics (granted, pretty common in Indian warfare) to make them submit. That sort of resilience has got to count for something--they didn't become the most spoken Native American language in the US for nothing. Although I guess the Navajo succeeded precisely because they weren't as bad as the Comanche or Sioux in attracting negative attention through massive amounts of raiding.

I don't know about the Sioux. They seem like a group that got extremely lucky moreso than the Comanche. The story of the smallpox epidemic (1839 or so was it?), the US attempting to vaccinate various American Indian groups, and running out of funding when the get to the Sioux and thus can't vaccinate rival groups like the Arikara and Mandan, causing their decimation and the rise of Sioux ascendence, seems like case in point. On the other hand, the origins of the Sioux as a farming people is very interesting."

I meant no offense about the Navajo. Your knowledge about that nation is superior to mine. I do know they had an excellent record of herding of sheep. I know they had built an excellent culture. Of course everyone knows their contribution in WWII. It has always been my Impression that they were more cooperative with the US government. I guess my impression that they inhabited land that was not coveted (I mean when the US government debated even allowing AZ and NM even being states because they did not think they'd have the necessary population. I guess the mineral wealth of silver pushed the issue.) But I ment no offense at all.

As I said I am partial to the Sioux as my best friend is from that nation. His Wife is Osage. If anyone could reccomend a good general book on all tribes from meeting of whites to the final settlements for my kindle I would appreciate it.
 
Top