Native American Empire

What's there to trade with the Americas? There's no gold in northern Canada, and I can't seem them sustaining it long enough to establish firm trading contacts in Mesoamerica and create secure trade routes from Central America to Vinland and then to Europe.

Well, if the Norse got there first, then I'd say timber would be an important export, especially with Iceland, what with it's scarcity of trees (thats why many of the houses there were partially built underground).

Also, theres the fur trade. The fur coming from beavers and maybe even bison hide all the way from the Midwest.

In exchange, the Norse colonists in America would require livestock, especially horses, cattle and sheep. And very probably iron ore as well, although it wouldn't be to long before the find sources of iron ore in North America.
 
I thought of something. Essentially Knut(Canute)'s empire doesnt die and a revolt later on leads to the defeated noblemen to flee to Greenland. Finding that far to small they continue to Vinland establishing a decent sized kingdom incorporating Vinland, Markland, Greenland, and several territories nearby. Due to necessity to get several resources and trading goods, along with the still ongoing desire to return and take the Viking Empire, they incorporate the native peoples and let them learn the secrets of iron working. Following that this new technology spreads throughout the Americas and those tribes that adapt conquer their neighbors and those that dont fall into obscurity. Because of the Mini-Ice Age all attempts at conquest end, and like OTL the rest of Europe doesnt believe these fanciful tales of another land.
 
i beg to differ, northern ontario has gold for sure....and maybe silver (not sure about the silver), + furs, +timber (for greenland) and good fishing. sounds like the foundations of an empire to me
Blimey, never heard of an Ontario gold rush, but there is a couple of issues with the goods listed nonetheless.


Gold requires mining, which is not a skill of the Vikings I have heard glowing reports of.

Beaver furs were a good trading commodity because of the fashions of the 17th and 18th centuries-- they were used in making hats and fashionable clothing, again something I have not heard Vikings do much of.

Timber is something I'm not certain about. Yeah, wood helps build a lot of the things needed during the middle ages, but it's not like trees didn't exist elsewhere-- there were even small forests in Greenland for a time, before it all froze over again. It might be better quality timber than elsewhere, sure, but I can't imagine Vikings devoting all their time to developing a North American lumber industry to compete with European lumber in the open market.

Regarding fish, while they may help sustain a population and offer a source for food, oils, and a couple other goods, an empire they do not make.

edit: This Ontario gold rush? The technology, organization, and patience to mine through so much solid rock to get to the gold simply isn't there during the period we're discussing.
 
Mississippi Mound Culture was put to end by contacts with Europeans. The Empire more likely would be created by those tribes (or survivors of) that came to contact first.

Actually, a number of the major centers of mound building culture, such as the site at Cahokia, had collapsed and been abandoned prior to the arrival of Europeans.
 
Blimey, never heard of an Ontario gold rush, but there is a couple of issues with the goods listed nonetheless.


Gold requires mining, which is not a skill of the Vikings I have heard glowing reports of.

Beaver furs were a good trading commodity because of the fashions of the 17th and 18th centuries-- they were used in making hats and fashionable clothing, again something I have not heard Vikings do much of.

Timber is something I'm not certain about. Yeah, wood helps build a lot of the things needed during the middle ages, but it's not like trees didn't exist elsewhere-- there were even small forests in Greenland for a time, before it all froze over again. It might be better quality timber than elsewhere, sure, but I can't imagine Vikings devoting all their time to developing a North American lumber industry to compete with European lumber in the open market.

Regarding fish, while they may help sustain a population and offer a source for food, oils, and a couple other goods, an empire they do not make.

edit: This Ontario gold rush? The technology, organization, and patience to mine through so much solid rock to get to the gold simply isn't there during the period we're discussing.


If the Norse are in a position to mine gold, fashion furs and export lumber, then they would have done it. If not, then they would have simply bought it off the Native Americans, and they were still only using flint at the time. So if a people using flint-based technology could do any of this, then people with more advanced metallurgical skills like the Norse shouldn't have a problem. They weren't idiots, if the resources are there, then their survival and future prosperity would depend on them learning to extract metals, as well as felling and transporting logs and trapping furs, any way they could.
 
I believe the point made earlier about European diseases introduced by Viking settlers and their livestock decimating the native population of eastern Canada has not been emphasized enough in regards to the possible, later establishment of a Viking/native empire. The reason the Viking expedition failed is only conjecture but it does stand to reason that the natives reacted negatively to their presence once they became afflicted with European diseases or the Vikings accosted native women. The grossly outnumbered Vikings were armed with spears, shields, bows, and the rare sword, and could not have withstood repeated attacks. This is a different story from that of the later European invader/settlers who had the technologically superior advantage of firearms and far greater numbers than the Vikings had. But even a much larger and firmly established Viking presence would have decimated or frightened away the natives because of the diseases introduced by what has been named the Columbian Exchange, and would have made a joint Viking/native empire impossible. It's interesting to imagine and discuss how the Vikings would have impacted the Americas had Erikson succeeded and built a substantial Norse dominated nation, but due to disease and the desire to reap the benefits of the Americas natural resources for profit, the natives would have invariably suffered the same consequences they did from the 16th century onward from the English, continental Europeans, and later United Statesians. (Is that a word - Statesians?) It's somewhat possible the native survivers of European diseases could have been converted into good little Vikings with darker skin, because native cultures and religions would probably not have been an obstacle with the nominally Christian Vikings as it was with the later European arrivals. The First People were doomed regardless, once the rest of Europe saw the Viking success in the Americas and invaded it to reap the spoils for God, Gold, Glory, fish, meat, furs, timber, farmland, and slaves.
 
If the Norse are in a position to mine gold, fashion furs and export lumber, then they would have done it. If not, then they would have simply bought it off the Native Americans, and they were still only using flint at the time. So if a people using flint-based technology could do any of this, then people with more advanced metallurgical skills like the Norse shouldn't have a problem. They weren't idiots, if the resources are there, then their survival and future prosperity would depend on them learning to extract metals, as well as felling and transporting logs and trapping furs, any way they could.
I'll try to make my opinion on gold mining in Vinland more clear: Vikings would not have mined gold in the area, not simply because of some sort of reluctance, but also because, first off, they wouldn't know that it's even there, and even if they did suspect, they would not have the power to reach the ore. The major silver and gold deposits in Ontario are quite far inland, buried underneath several layers of solid rock, and required massive amounts of manpower in OTL, and that's with dynamite and all that modern technology could field. The ore fields were only found around 1900, far after easier places to mine had been tapped. Major mining operations occurred there only after a railroad had been built through to allow prospectors to explore deeper into the country without fear of running out of supplies.

The Vikings don't have that kind of power at hand.
 
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